Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

[MsWalterMitty]

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

@JuvenileGreyFox

To me it is not about breeds, it is not really about 'dogs'. In my experience there is a fundamental lack of education/awareness of how humans should interact with dogs, especially children.

How would you react if a stranger, three to four times your size walked directly over to you, uninvited, and reached your hand towards your head. Wouldn't leave you alone, followed you around, chased you. You would call the police.

The amount of times parents have either encouraged (or not stopped) their children from doing this to my dogs.

A lot of dogs, especially if they haven't been brought up around children, are afraid of children. Children are unpredictable.

Yet time and time again, parents allow children to interact with dogs unsupervised. Chase them, reach out to them, crowd them, invade their space. It is no wonder these accidents keep happening.

I have dogs, neither of which have ever shown aggression towards humans. I never allow them to be unsupervised around children. We can be out and children will run over and parents make half hearted, don't annoy the dogs. Yet if my dog snapped, it would be my fault.

I saw a video on YT of a baby pulling at a dogs ear and tail and the parents laughing and filming and I thought there’s an accident waiting to happen.

Agree with previous posters that a large part of the problem is also people buying breeds that are completely unsuitable for their family and lifestyle. Someone I know, who has mobility problems and difficulty walking has just bought a husky puppy. A dog that needs hours and hours of daily exercise. Because they love the breed.

@toomanytwinkies

I saw a Japanese Akita at a country fair once and too many children were wanting to stroke it thinking it was a husky, that is not a breed you want your child sticking it’s little hand by, why do parents let their children do this?

Because people expect dog owners to muzzle dogs that are likely to bite. Parents can be very irresponsible but so can dog owners.

And children's safety matters more.

Yet if my dog snapped, it would be my fault.

Yes, it would be. That’s how it works. You may find it unfair, but if you aren’t prepared for that then you have the option to not have a dog, or to not take your dog places where there will be children. There will always be people who don’t look after their children properly/teach them to interact with dogs properly, it’s shit but you just have to be prepared for it. I keep my DD away from all dogs we don’t know (and half of those we do, tbh) and get accused of teaching my child to fear dogs, by dog owners, so parents can’t win either.

I love huskies but no way can I have one with my lifestyle. Would adore an Irish wolfhound etc but again not practical. I'm desperate for any dog tbh but at the moment I don't have the capacity for one.

Because people expect dog owners to muzzle dogs that are likely to bite. Parents can be very irresponsible but so can dog owners.

I agree but just because a fig owner is being irresponsible doesn’t mean an adult should be too.

It’s hard with Akitas as they look like chunky huskies but I wouldn’t expect a parent to let their child stick their hand around any unknown dog tbh.

“So police shoot the dogs which is what generally happens & seize any others. Often putting down others if they are on the list. And yet all of this is done with no knowledge of what breeds they have actually shot & when they record X death caused by Malamute or Jack Russell cross it's just guesswork?”

Yes

Unless someone’s going, this is a purebred whatever and here’s the paperwork then it’s just based on what they look like.

There isn’t really any accurate way of determining what breed a dog is other than that anyway.

There have been cases of “pitbulls” seized and put to sleep where there was in fact proof they were a different breed or cross - but they measured as pitbulls so that’s that.

I agree with akitas and huskies. Beautiful but need a specialist to manage them not some big I am man!

I love German Shepherds but they often seem to be one man (or women) dogs. Private and keep themselves to themselves, not really interested in having a good romp around the fields. I hate the way they have been bred with the sloping backs.

I always always ask whether I can say hello to a strange dog. A chap yesterday had a border collie puppy he was holding to get him used to the big wide world outside the supermarket. The dog was absolutely adorable. Seemed very calm and collected as he was in the 'bosses' arms. I suspect that dog will adore this man and tolerated others.

Everyone - always ask whether your dog likes to be touched. I do like those leads that state what personality the dog has. Really helps.

A dog owner!!!

Lol at the thought of an irresponsible fig owner.

I obviously need to go back to bed!

There have been cases of “pitbulls” seized and put to sleep where there was in fact proof they were a different breed or cross - but they measured as pitbulls so that’s that.

How did they discover they weren't pit bulls?

Everyone - always ask whether your dog likes to be touched. I do like those leads that state what personality the dog has. Really helps.

My sister has a ‘nervous’ one and random people have said, “why take it out if it’s nervous!” Like they’re more annoyed their perceived entitlement to stroke a dog trumps everything else, like that dog is there for them! It’s also more for their protection in case he gets scared and reacts! What would they want us do, keep him shut in at home? We’re trying to get him used to people so he’s no longer nervous so move your chubby maulers out of his face, thank yew! 🤣

He’s a greyhound by the way 🥰

@BobbinHood I agree with you to a certain extent but there has to be an accepting of responsibility on both sides (and I acknowledge that you do this by keeping your child away from dogs)

I love the phrase 'It is easier to put on slippers than carpet the whole world'. Risks exist. Humans have to co-exist with other species. The solution is not to get rid of the other species, they have as much right to exist as you do.

“How did they discover they weren't pit bulls?”

The owners knew the parentage or in one case it had a pedigree.

But the way the law works on pitbulls is that it doesn’t matter what breed they actually are, if they’re reported and fit the description then they’re then pitbulls.

I don’t mean after attacks btw - but because they’re a banned type.

I doubt anyone after a fatal attack is particularly trying to prove their dog is a different breed - tbh I suspect they’ve more on their plate than that.

Lots of people who wouldn't have thought about getting a dog 20 years ago, now have dogs. Mainly because dogs have become massively popular and because there are SO many different breeds and traits. But that's an issue when the human gets a dog they cannot physically or verbally control. I worked with someone who had a young family and their partner insisted they get this giant breed dog, big in height but also very very muscular. I had our puppy at the same time and she was constantly asking about toilet training, how it had outgrown the crate, was destructive and too big for the house, how it only listened to her partner and how much it was to insure etc.

I couldn't believe that they hadn't considered these things before getting the dog and that she allowed her partner to bring a dog into the house that she didn't even want. Just because he liked the look of it. They still have it (I'm surprised) and it's always pictured with the child snuggled up, it makes me very very uneasy. As would any image of a baby cuddled up beside a dog.

The problem isn't the dog- it's the parents. No parent in their right mind would buy a dog like that with a small child in the house.

[quote JuvenileGreyFox]@BobbinHood I agree with you to a certain extent but there has to be an accepting of responsibility on both sides (and I acknowledge that you do this by keeping your child away from dogs)

I love the phrase 'It is easier to put on slippers than carpet the whole world'. Risks exist. Humans have to co-exist with other species. The solution is not to get rid of the other species, they have as much right to exist as you do.[/quote]
There does have to be some acceptance of responsibility on the part of some parents (like ones who bring unknown adult dogs into their homes with toddlers!) but ultimately children’s safety is more important and should be the priority. Dogs have a right to exist but do humans have a right to own and breed them?

It's also been my understanding that professionals also look at the dogs to determine the breed, based on shared characteristics. And of course the owners may have proof of heritage. There will be errors & miscarriages of justice like we get in the human court system. But I think it's disingenuous to say that the generally breeds are wrongly identified. The recent case has identified an American Bully, I can't see the culprit actually being a Bichon Frisé mix but wrongly labelled.

But the way the law works on pitbulls is that it doesn’t matter what breed they actually are, if they’re reported and fit the description then they’re then pitbulls.

and if you prove otherwise it can be taken into account.

I doubt anyone after a fatal attack is particularly trying to prove their dog is a different breed -

My question was specifically talking about fatal attacks though.

I love German Shepherds but they often seem to be one man (or women) dogs. Private and keep themselves to themselves, not really interested in having a good romp around the fields. I hate the way they have been bred with the sloping backs.

Knew someone years ago who had a German Shepherd, a police reject. He was an absolute sweetie and loved fuss.

@BobbinHood I am personally against the breeding of dogs. My dogs are mongrel rescues, ex-street dogs. I would never 'buy' a dog.

For me it is an animal welfare issue. So many pedigree dogs have terrible health problems. Humans taking the role of Mother Nature, creating animals with all kinds of physical and temperamental problems.

@Eeksteek

It IS the breed. Labs and spaniels are bred to like being with people, to listen, to have weak mouths, to enjoy touch. Hundreds of generations of the survival of the soppiest! Fighting breeds were bred to react with aggression, to attack in a frenzy, to be wound up, to hold on with a crushing bite. If a lab snaps (generally out of fear and anxiety because it’s been poorly raised or it’s needs are not met) it snaps, and then runs away to safety, or can be pulled off. It will let go if hurt. It snaps in its own defence, because it doesn’t have hundreds of generations of being bred to strengthen its desire and ability to fight and attack. Fighting breeds have a much higher chance of reacting like this, and a much higher risk of causing terrible injuries if they do. It’s not their fault, and good training and a healthy environment can certainly produce good individual dogs. But that isn’t the same as saying they don’t a higher risk of killing or maiming as a breed.

Genes load the gun. The environment only pulls the trigger. Labs etc come with rubber bullets and safety catches. Fighting breeds are armour piercing rounds with hair triggers. The might not fire, but they kill if they do. All dogs can be dangerous, but big powerful, fighting dogs are the most dangerous, most often. Having one at all is quite a responsibility, but having one around a child is an unacceptable risk snd should absolutely have to consequences to stop other people taking the same risks. It’s what we do with any other child neglect, to deter other parents from making the same poor parenting decisions. The parents would face charges if the child had been accidentally killed or injured by any other weapon, because weapons shouldn’t be near children.

Absolutely spot on. You can't breed these dogs over countless generations and then wring your hands when the breeding kicks in and they do what they're bred to do. You add training and mistreatment into the mix and you're dealing with a weapon.

There is a reason the police use bloody big dogs to bring down people. There is a reason the police use highly excitable dogs to have fun sniffing for things. They are a tool and/or a weapon.

I'm a dog owner of a very small, astonishingly friendly dog, but he's still a dog with a dog's set of reflexes and instincts.

Should owners of any dog that mauls and kills be potentially charged with manslaughter? Absolutely. It's your dog and your responsibility.

Accidents can and always will happen but there is a difference between a genuine accident and someone buying a fighting breed, training it to fight and then wondering why it's gone for a kid.

“But I think it's disingenuous to say that the generally breeds are wrongly identified. The recent case has identified an American Bully, I can't see the culprit actually being a Bichon Frisé mix but wrongly labelled.”

Well no, I doubt it’s a bichon frise, lol.I don’t think anyone involved would make that big a mistake.

But... my point is, that determining breed in what is by definition a mix breed dog is always basically a bit of guesswork.

But American bullies, pitbulls, “breeds” like that are in this country a mix of a lot of different breeds to get that particular look - some of those breeds in the mix will be breeds people don’t consider dangerous.

So if you believe breed matters more than what breeders or owners do because some breeds are inherently going to behave more dangerously it should matter hugely what’s actually in those dogs.

This thread is in extremely bad taste - those parents, right or wrong, have just lost their child.

Perhaps try having a little bit of respect, regardless of what you think of them, I'm sure they're blaming themselves enough.

The recent case has identified an American Bully, I can't see the culprit actually being a Bichon Frisé mix but wrongly labelled.

Well quite. Nobody is mixing up pitbulls and poodles, are they?!