Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

[MsWalterMitty]

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

I don't see how a dog bred for hunting is any different to a dog bred for fighting.?

Both are bred to kill another animal. But why don't hunting dogs get the same amount of fear.?

Just out of interest.

“Eeksteek

It IS the breed. Labs and spaniels are bred to like being with people, to listen, to have weak mouths, to enjoy touch. Hundreds of generations of the survival of the soppiest! Fighting breeds were bred to react with aggression, to attack in a frenzy, to be wound up, to hold on with a crushing bite. If a lab snaps (generally out of fear and anxiety because it’s been poorly raised or it’s needs are not met) it snaps, and then runs away to safety, or can be pulled off. It will let go if hurt. It snaps in its own defence, because it doesn’t have hundreds of generations of being bred to strengthen its desire and ability to fight and attack. Fighting breeds have a much higher chance of reacting like this, and a much higher risk of causing terrible injuries if they do. It’s not their fault, and good training and a healthy environment can certainly produce good individual dogs. But that isn’t the same as saying they don’t a higher risk of killing or maiming as a breed.

Genes load the gun. The environment only pulls the trigger. Labs etc come with rubber bullets and safety catches. Fighting breeds are armour piercing rounds with hair triggers. The might not fire, but they kill if they do. All dogs can be dangerous, but big powerful, fighting dogs are the most dangerous, most often. Having one at all is quite a responsibility, but having one around a child is an unacceptable risk snd should absolutely have to consequences to stop other people taking the same risks. It’s what we do with any other child neglect, to deter other parents from making the same poor parenting decisions. The parents would face charges if the child had been accidentally killed or injured by any other weapon, because weapons shouldn’t be near children.”

Wholeheartedly agree with this. The “deed not breed” argument dangerously minimises the issue.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom

List of fatal dog attacks. There’s maybe more of a range of breeds of dogs featured in there than people might expect - including Jack Russells, Lakeland Terriers, German Shepherds, Dobermans, Rottweilers, Malamutes. There are then the illegal Pit Bulls, and other bull breeds like American and Staffordshire.

I think fundamentally - breeds aside - people should never have a dog they can’t control. I say this as someone whose 15kg dog was attached by a 50kg dog in the park - the owner was only about 60kg herself and had no hope of controlling it. A dog of that weight exerts a massive amount of force and you’ve no chance.

However even small dogs can attack and kill so need to be kept away from children and never left unsupervised with children.

@RobertaFirmino

Well Jack Russells are nasty, yappy little fuckers but *@Justgorgeous* was asking about Labradors - who seem to be very placid.

FWIW, the parents really do not need all the finger pointing. They found out the hard way.

We've a jack Russell Cross and nasty is not a word I would use to describe him. He does bark a bit but he's certainly not nasty and the only damage he'd do to someone is cover them in saliva... burglars included.

It's such a pointless argument to say it's either the breed or the upbringing, it's a combination of both. There are some types of dog that have been specifically bred to fight, or chase, or catch rats! They have a genetic predisposition to certain behaviours. They can be trained to be fantastic family pets but the genetic predisposition is still there. Equally, there are types of dogs that have been bred specifically to be pets, but that doesn't mean they don't have the potential to bite if you don't train them properly. I have a rescue greyhound who is a big softy and very calm around people; this is a combination of his breed and his training - but I still wouldn't leave him alone with my 3 year old.

Yanbu. How much nanny state is needed? It was a strong muscular dog with an unknown temperament. That poor child.

Tired of dog owners who can't control or train their 'pets', my child was bitten in the park and has scars due to an uncontrolled dog attack.

@Indoctro what hunting breeds are you referring to?

The reality is that some dogs have stronger bites but all dogs require training.

Collies for instance are pretty nippy, I've certainly been on the wrong side of my dog's grumpy nature (older and just had surgery admittedly) but they don't lock their jaws in the same way, in fact nipping the sheep's ankles is instinct hence nipping kids wellies! I wouldn't trust him with a child even before he became an old grump, and he's fully trained, got his hold certificate for obedience.

Someone mentioned miniature pinchers on the thread, they are a nightmare for biting, well one particular one is, goes for my dog and draws blood, thankfully he doesn't go for it because he has eaten bigger bones!

People always say on this thread that it's fine because they personally never leave their dog and their toddler/child alone together - people have already pointed out that this isn't a fail-safe if you couldn't stop the dog anyway, but I'm always a bit sceptical that this is true. Really, never, for a moment? I can see how this would be true for a baby, but a three year old, say - are people really putting the dog in a different area of the house if they go to answer the door, if they do the washing up, if they're doing a task that involves going from room to room? Would you not be constantly separating the dog and the child for tiny tasks and moments? If people really are doing that then it must make life so unenjoyable and surely it's a constant reminder that you've bought a dangerous creature into the home?

I've commented earlier about my experiences in ED with children having been bitten and mauled by dogs.
Every single one every single time says "they've never done anything like this before" "they're such a softie" "they've always been so good around the children".
And this thread is full of people saying the same thing. This is why we don't learn.
(And googling images of a bully XL is mind boggling. They look like mean vicious nasty animals. How can anyone think they look cute?)

I don't see how a dog bred for hunting is any different to a dog bred for fighting.?

I imagine it takes a whole other type of aggression to attack your own kind - another predator baring it’s teeth at you - than chasing prey. A hunting instinct is in some ways fairly natural, a ‘fighting to kill another dog’ instinct is not. What people have done over the years is taken the most angry and aggressive dogs, with strong jaws and stocky strong build, and bred them to do something that a wild animal wouldn’t. They don’t just fight a bit, they have no sense of backing down, even if they are going to get severely hurt themselves - that’s not natural at all, wild animals don’t do that. Generally one will try and back down before they are severely hurt or killed, and this happens fairly quickly - but in a fighting pit that wouldn’t make for a good show.

These parents are at fault - bringing a dog into a small house like this with two young children. There is a certain "cachet" in some people about having a dog that looks like that. They had had the dog a week? The same type of dog that killed a young boy in Wales a couple of months ago! Irresponsible - that poor child.

Indeed. I would not have them again. BUT if they run away, no one gets hurt. Also, they don’t run away. One of them has adequate recall - as good as my collies and better than my dozy spaniel - and one is walked on lead because she doesn’t. So I can physically prevent the breed traits from being a problem.

There were bred to track and kill small animals. They weren’t bred to fight other big powerful animals and they aren’t big powerful animals. They frequently bite (as a breed) because they are stubborn and independent and have sleep startles. But they aren’t bred to aggressively fight to the death and they don’t kill children. Cats are sleek killing machines, but they don’t kill children. Power and temperament matter. And that’s largely a function of breed.

If the papers are to be believed the dog was bought to stud not to be a family dog. The two result in very different temperments. The parents were naive and it's ended in tragedy.

Interesting that it's widely seen a problem with the dog and the breed, not a problem with the breeders and the owners and the parents.

I am a first time dog owner with a 9 year old child. What I have learnt, is that it has taken much more time and energy to train my child on how to behave around my dog than it has to train my lovely spaniel.

My DH's family had 'dangerous dog' types when he was growing up. But he lived on a property with grounds so large that it took three days to mow the lawn. The dogs were well trained and had a purpose.

Now his parents live in a normal house, they have two sweet, pampered lap dogs.

I suppose what I am saying is that whilst dogs may have a certain disposition by breeding or temperament. Humans entirely control the dog's environment and are therefore ultimately responsible for their behaviour.

Interesting that it's widely seen a problem with the dog and the breed, not a problem with the breeders and the owners and the parents.

I sympathise with this but at the end of the day it’s like arguing ‘guns don’t kill people, people kill people.’ But since a few too many people can’t keep a gun responsibly it’s better not to have them available for the general public. Same with certain breeds of dog in my opinion.

[quote abeanbaked]@Indoctro what hunting breeds are you referring to?[/quote]
Labrador is definitely top of the list and the fact it's responsible for so many bites to kids proves it should not be pushed as this amazing family pet. It's not bred to sit in a house all day with kids. It's bred to work and there lies the problem.

I own a staffy which I got as a puppy and chose the breed as they are good with children, I've owned many breeds over the years but felt this was most suitable. I waited till my kids are at school and I know the staffy is highly intelligent so also needs a job to be happy.

He does agility, scentwork classes and canicross with me, this help focus his mind and use up his energy, which creates a obedient, well rounded happy dog.

If I couldn't offer him a life like this I would of got a dog bred for the lap like a pug.

People need to not pick a breed on what they like but on what type of home they can offer it

I hate seeing labs/ spaniels etc in pet homes with no jobs, these dogs need to work so if you can't work them through shooting or agility then don't get one, it won't be a happy dog.

A lot of the problem is where dogs are passed around or 'bought for buttons' like this one was. They have no stability and no one knows how they were treated.
My friends daughter has a history of this, buys a dog on a whim, who is shut in the kitchen, then she gets fed up with it and gives it away.

@Hopefulsunrise the parents were stupid and irresponsible. Getting a dog like that is akin to driving a car without putting the little one in a car seat and no seat belt. A terrible accident waiting to happen.

@HardbackWriter

People always say on this thread that it's fine because they personally never leave their dog and their toddler/child alone together - people have already pointed out that this isn't a fail-safe if you couldn't stop the dog anyway, but I'm always a bit sceptical that this is true. Really, never, for a moment? I can see how this would be true for a baby, but a three year old, say - are people really putting the dog in a different area of the house if they go to answer the door, if they do the washing up, if they're doing a task that involves going from room to room? Would you not be constantly separating the dog and the child for tiny tasks and moments? If people really are doing that then it must make life so unenjoyable and surely it's a constant reminder that you've bought a dangerous creature into the home?

You keep the dog with you, you literally just call the dog as you leave the room, because you’d be an idiot to trust a 3 year old not to suddenly decide to go harass the dog.

When my kids were wee we had a Cavalier King Charles as the family dog. I didn't need to know the breed of the dog that killed to know it wasn't a cav, or a westie, or a bichon or any of the other suitable family breeds.

The point is 2 fold: these wee breeds are bred mainly to be pets so have had the aggression bred out of them; on the vanishingly rare chance they turned rogue, they don't have the size and strength to kill a child.

I think the deed not breed or no bad breed only bad owners stuff is a pile of crap. If you have a young family, get a pet that couldn't actually kill them FFS.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

Yes any dog can attack but it’s never poodles found to have killed a child!!! Let’s be honest there’s a list of about 5 breeds who come up time and time again.

Yes it’s never a golden retriever is it

@Indoctro but labradors aren't bred to bite and kill. That is an issue with how the dog has been raised, potentially in the breeding if it has been dodgy but it is not really in their nature to attack. I have a retriever and her innate instinct is not to kill. When she does come upon a live animal she is unsure how to handle it as she it is in her genes to retrieve shot game with a very soft mouth or flush birds, not handle live game.

She is happy, I can assure you. We do lots of retrieving, steadiness, heel work etc. Infact the full litter went to pet homes, all of which have gotten on fine. The issues that most lab/spaniel/retriever issues will have is harnessing their dogs desire to hunt, this is usually with their noses and flushing out birds or deer, not hunting and attacking humans. Very few will be responsible for fatally injuring children in comparison to XL bull-type dogs.

The issue is a mix of uncontrollably strong dog which is bred for size, strength and its ability to lock on to things and the kind of people that buy them. Sorry, but I really do think it's the breed and the people.

It was irresponsible to get any rescue dog with such a young child and they’ve paid the ultimate price. It is an awful tragedy.

I have two rescue dogs and only after years do I have a good, not perfect, idea of how they’ll react in situations. One will put up with being sat on, poked etc by kids and the other is an angry old man in their presence. It’s my responsibility to manage that.