Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

[MsWalterMitty]

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

I saw a Japanese Akita at a country fair once and too many children were wanting to stroke it thinking it was a husky, that is not a breed you want your child sticking it’s little hand by, why do parents let their children do this?

@Addsverisimilitude

I've commented earlier about my experiences in ED with children having been bitten and mauled by dogs. Every single one every single time says "they've never done anything like this before" "they're such a softie" "they've always been so good around the children". And this thread is full of people saying the same thing. This is why we don't learn. (And googling images of a bully XL is mind boggling. They look like mean vicious nasty animals. How can anyone think they look cute?)

Of course they haven’t done anything like this before. Because if they had they would already have been put down. So if the dog is going to do something like that there’s always going to be a first time. I would never have anything in my house that has the slightest potential to kill a child.

Yes the parents are suffering horribly, but what on earth were they thinking? That poor little girl. It needs discussing, even if it just stops one person making this choice in future, that’s a child’s life potentially saved.

I suspect that this is predominantly a man problem too. There was a thread on here a few months ago from a woman whose partner got a dog that was unsuitable for their children. He got it against her will, she was having to keep the dog and small DC separated all day and was facing getting it removed against his will.

The big issues with deciding it’s breeds that are the problem is that firstly identification - a lot of the “breeds’ just aren’t actually breeds. While genetics do matter Dog’s don’t inherit behavioural traits by looking a certain way but actually being mongrels. Also people are generally pretty rubbish at identifying dog breeds anyway, a reported staffy could in fact be anything at all, I’ve seen lab crosses that people were adamant were staffies. I know a Great Dane owner who is asked all the time if her giant dog is a Dalmatian.

So the “breed” is never a set thing... American xl bullies are not pedigree dogs, anything muscular gets thrown in there.

But also they’ve done scientific studies on correlated factors in fatal attacks, breed isn’t significant - the top 3 by far is, a dog where it’s with people that aren’t it’s people, a history of abuse and or neglect and being unneutered.

www.news24.com/You/Archive/little-boy-killed-by-family-labrador-in-horror-attack-20170728

And labradors do kill children - if I remember rightly that was originally reported as a pitbull.

But also they’ve done scientific studies on correlated factors in fatal attacks, breed isn’t significant - the top 3 by far is, a dog where it’s with people that aren’t it’s people, a history of abuse and or neglect and being unneutered.

But breed is significant. Akitas for example were bred as fighting dogs, their temperament is well known to be fiercely protective and to not back down, combined with strong hunting instincts. Never mind how they’ve been treated.

Why is everyone on this thread talking about breed and not about how they acquired this dog?

It should be a cautionary tale against privately rehoming a dog. If you get a rescue dog from a proper rescue centre, it will have been assessed for temperament and other needs. If it's assessed as (for instance) not being cat friendly then they won't rehome to someone with cats.

Private rehoming is the wild west of dog acquisition. Owners who don't have an accurate view of their own dogs needs and what sort of home might suit it. Owners who lie or minimise because they want to see the back of their dog. Unidentified medical problems that can be very expensive and / or cause pain which in turn makes the dog grumpy. And so it goes on.

My dog was privately rehomed from a friend, and I'd still never advise people to privately rehome!

Dogs temperaments are never completely about either the breed or the upbringing. There's all sorts of factors - parental temperament (snappy Pomeranians tend to create snappy Pomeranians), mother's stress during pregnancy, the environment they're raised in by the breeder (big difference between a puppy farmer's shed and someone's family living room) and so on.

But I do wish people would realise that the person holding the lead isn't always the one responsible for its upbringing. Sometimes they're a very responsible dog owner trying to pick up the pieces left by others - even if their dog is having a meltdown in public because they've seen something its scared of.

“But breed is significant.”

Not when it comes to fatal attacks it’s just not - breed comes way way down the common factors in studies.

Akitas are definitely a tricky breed and one of the few I’d never own, but they’re no more likely to kill someone.

I agree - a lot of people get these ‘status’ dogs that look scary and tough with children in the house - and this unfortunately in a lot of cases is the end result! I know someone that has 2 big staff mixed dogs that tower over their small child and built of muscle - and they video themselves regularly encouraging the dogs to battle over food etc - the safety of their child often plays on my mind because if them 2 dogs ever turned on her there is no way the parents would ever get them off. Beyond stupid and there should be tighter laws on protecting children with animals in the house!

[quote abeanbaked]@Indoctro but labradors aren't bred to bite and kill. That is an issue with how the dog has been raised, potentially in the breeding if it has been dodgy but it is not really in their nature to attack. I have a retriever and her innate instinct is not to kill. When she does come upon a live animal she is unsure how to handle it as she it is in her genes to retrieve shot game with a very soft mouth or flush birds, not handle live game.

She is happy, I can assure you. We do lots of retrieving, steadiness, heel work etc. Infact the full litter went to pet homes, all of which have gotten on fine. The issues that most lab/spaniel/retriever issues will have is harnessing their dogs desire to hunt, this is usually with their noses and flushing out birds or deer, not hunting and attacking humans. Very few will be responsible for fatally injuring children in comparison to XL bull-type dogs.

The issue is a mix of uncontrollably strong dog which is bred for size, strength and its ability to lock on to things and the kind of people that buy them. Sorry, but I really do think it's the breed and the people. [/quote]
I'm fearful of Labs , as twice recently my on the lead staffy has be attacked by off the lead labs and it was horrific. I think a Lab that's worked is a happy well rounded dog, a lab stuck living in a family home with two walks a day and no brain training scare me especially as the owners automatically assume it will be great with kids.

Plus my kids have been growled at by a friends Lab, which I know is good as at least the dog warned them, all they did was walk past.

That said I don't allow my kids to go up to any strange dogs , and I never allow kids to play with my dog when visiting my home, he gets locked away. No one should let there dogs around other peoples kids.

@Dammitthisisshit

I also think people should have a licence to own a dog and that should involve passing an educational course too.

Yes.
So much poor dog behaviour in general around (before anyone jumps on this I’m not saying all dogs, but far too many dogs) that would be helped by this.

A license to own a dog that you can only get if you’ve done an ownership course. A registration for the dog that is linked to the license and issued once the dog has been through training classes. Registration records DNA.
Anyone mistreating a dog is never allowed a license again.
Only registered breeders or experienced rescue centres allowed to sell dogs (ie no puppy farms).
Any dangerous dog behaviour or repeated antisocial behaviour (like allowing dogs to chase birds on our local ‘dogs on leads only’ nature reserve) loses a license holders right to get any new dogs, or existing dog(s) re-homed/ put down depending on severity.
No high risk breeds allowed: because the same breeds pop up time and time again.
Paid for by fines on any dog poo left lying around which could be DNA tested as it’s all registered.

Why don’t we have this?

I agree with all of this in principle. The reason we don’t have it is cost. Who would administer and enforce it? The police certainly do not have the manpower.

@tabulahrasa

“But breed is significant.”

Not when it comes to fatal attacks it’s just not - breed comes way way down the common factors in studies.

Akitas are definitely a tricky breed and one of the few I’d never own, but they’re no more likely to kill someone.

I mean sure but what’s more likely to bite, an akita or a golden retriever.

You only have to read the breeds website to see the problem, they say they make great family pets but reccommend that you use a pronged collar for them.....ffs

“Why is everyone on this thread talking about breed and not about how they acquired this dog?”

Exactly.

“I mean sure but what’s more likely to bite, an akita or a golden retriever.”

Statistically I’d imagine a golden retriever tbh, there are a lot more of them.

There’s also a resource guarding issue in lots of lines of golden retrievers, that’s a very tricky problem to deal with and leads to lots of bites.

There are absolutely breeds that are less suited to the average pet owner than others, but there also aren’t “safe” dog breeds.

I mean there’s be no point having a dangerous dogs list or a list pet insurers won’t insure if breeds didn’t matter. Yes a badly treated dog is more likely to lash out regardless of breeds but lets not pretend a dachshund and an akita are the same.

Switzerland I beleive has compulsory ownership courses. I suspect there would be uproar if it was suggested in U.K

Statistically I’d imagine a golden retriever tbh, there are a lot more of them.

Yes statistically but that’s not the case. Out of 100 fatal dog cases there won’t be more goldens than other dangerous dogs. So what does that tell you?

There are dangerous dog lists for a reason.

@tabulahrasa - All dogs can bite, but there is a difference between a non fatal bite from a dog that is resource guarding and an attack where an animal has a strong kill instinct and mauls and shakes a baby to death. That’s not really retriever territory is it?

“There are dangerous dog lists for a reason.”

Um, that reason is the media...

The dangerous dogs act and the banned breeds were rushed through after a particularly high profile case - those breeds have now been banned for 30 years and yet dog attacks go up all the time, not down.

What would work much more effectively would be legislation about responsible breeding and ownership, but that didn’t make fir great headlines in the way devil dogs does... so...

@BananaPlants finally someone making sense

I would go further than criticising private rehoming, and say that I can't understand why anyone would hold onto or acquire any kind of dog (even a good temperament breed from a licensed breeder) if they have a baby or toddler at home. It might be ok if family in question has the space at home to always keep the dog separate from the baby, but that's not true of most homes in the UK.

Supposedly cute videos of small children cuddling up to pet dogs make me wince, as it could go so horribly wrong in an instant.

the family in question
(typo self spotted)

Cue loads of people arriving to pretend that bull-type breeds aren't grossly over represented in such incidents...

It's mad that people will accept a prized border collie has been bred for generations to herd sheep and that genetics are essential to that, but when it comes to dogs that have been bred specifically to fight, it's all "deed not breed" and suddenly genetics don't matter one bit. It's a coincidence that these dogs are killing children and you're just prejudiced if you question whether they make great family pets.