Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

[MsWalterMitty]

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

I also think there should be much tougher sentences if your dog hurts someone.

i agree with everyone else that any dog no matter the breed is capable of attacking and killing a baby , but whenever these tragic deaths occur it is nornally , not always ,but normally the same sorts of breeds that are then responsible .

i dont think its in bad taste to talk about it , because if not now then when ?

it does make me wonder why families will aquire dogs of those breeds when they have very young children , why not any of the smaller spaniel breeds , as i understand it spaniels are known for being family oriented and gentle , i have never ever asked a dog owner if i could stroke their spaniel and been told no! they are lovely dogs
basset hounds which id the dog we had when i was a kid are also very good natured and soft .

I’ve just googled American Bully dogs and absolutely nothing about those dogs says ‘family pet’ to me.
I’m an owner of two dogs and grew up on a working farm with dogs.
Anyone choosing a breed like that as a family pet, IMHO is dangerously irresponsible and on some form of personal power trip. I do think these breeds should be banned unless you can prove you specifically need that breed (or similar) as an actual working dog.
Also cruel on these types of breeds to be kept in the average UK domestic house.

@freedaym

I also think there should be much tougher sentences if your dog hurts someone.

This. If people were held responsible for injuries to others even if done by a CockerPoo, people may start to take dog ownership more seriously.

I used to have a breed that had a bad rep when I was with an ex who had kids. When the kids came round I would put a baskerville muzzle on her until they had gone. I used to give her treats through it so she associated the muzzle with treats. The kids did the same and everything was fine. She never showed any aggression at any point but even 000000.1% risk is not worth taking and baskervilles are totally humane. They can pant, drink and vomit through them. when she heard the kids coming she would stand with her eyes shut while I put it on and shoved a piece of dried liver through. Damn I miss that doggo!

@LakieLady they are usually bred abroad and then brought here once the cropping has been done.

People who buy a puppy with cropped ears know 100% they are buying from a dodgy breeder. They know exactly what they are doing and dont care.

Then they often then sell on the dog when they are a young adult because they can't cope. So some other dick, buys what they know was a poorly bred dog, from someone who wasn't prepared to take care of it properly and take them home to their kids.

Labs and retrievers? I honestly don’t recall any incidents of them attacking children. Is that actually true?

Yes I know of a girl seriously attacked and disfigured by a black lab.

It is not good enough to never leave a child and dog alone btw. If a dog turns, you have little hope of stopping it.

@Herani

I’ve just googled American Bully dogs and absolutely nothing about those dogs says ‘family pet’ to me. I’m an owner of two dogs and grew up on a working farm with dogs. Anyone choosing a breed like that as a family pet, IMHO is dangerously irresponsible and on some form of personal power trip. I do think these breeds should be banned unless you can prove you specifically need that breed (or similar) as an actual working dog. Also cruel on these types of breeds to be kept in the average UK domestic house.

This.

I’m not a believer in “any dog can turn”. All of family dogs would rather turn and walk off than react violently.
Despite years of experience with dogs I learnt rescue dogs really aren’t the same. I think to re home in dogs doesn’t come with enough warnings.
I also agree that it’s not fair on the dog if they are any kind of high energy or working breed to be kept in the average U.K. home.

It’s the upbringing not the breed

The breed plays a huge part though because they're big enough and capable of killing people. Some smaller breeds or whatever might bite people, but don't kill. Even a week trained and well socialised dog like this is a risk as just like people animals can be unpredictable. I do think some proper forget they are animals and not just fluffy pets. I do feel sorry for the family and no doubts they wouldn't have got the dog if they had even a small inclination it could be a risk, but education around this needs to improve.

Well*

@allthatglimmers

It pisses me off they’ve got a Go Fund Me to help with costs after probably spending a stupid amount of money on the dog that did all this.

A neighbour said they'd bought the dog very cheaply - 'for buttons' was the expression used.

They should be prosecuted imo rather than setting up go fund mes. They brought a dangerous dog into the home, no doubt through ignorance which will killed their defenceless child they're supposed to be protect. Not a popular view I'm sure, but the reality is that if they'd made different decisions she'd still be here.

It’s always the same breeds of dog and anyone saying “it’s not the breed … “ is kidding themselves.
Everytime I hear of a dog attack I just know it’s going to be a bully breed of some kind and it infuriates me. They should be banned. And I say that as a dog lover.

I also think people should have a licence to own a dog and that should involve passing an educational course too. And the dealing of puppies should be likened to the dealing of drugs for those not health tested and approved. The approval should include temperament testing of the dam and sire

Well, I don’t agree that selling adult dogs should be illegal. Over the years, I have “bought” (more like rescued!) a fair few adult tiny toy breeds from (fucking dreadful) breeders. Once they have served their purpose, these dogs are thrown away like rubbish, often with quite serious medical issues due to neglect and over breeding, That is not ok. Obviously the risk posed from a tiny dog (less than 6lbs) is minuscule. None of mine could even break the skin if they bit, they simply do not have the bite power. Would I adopt an adult bully breed? No. I have been adopting dogs for 20 years and always have multiples, all different breeds and sizes. But I’m not experienced enough to take on such a powerful animal.
Breeding in general should be far, far more regulated. KC registration means less than nothing and no one is looking at where these dogs come from or where they are going to. Regulate breeders and bring back licensing, so everyone who wants a dog is properly assessed to ensure they are suitable and capable.

neighbour said they'd bought the dog very cheaply - 'for buttons' was the expression used.

Either they lied to the neighbour, maybe not wanting to admit how much they spent. Or that's another huge red flag that the owner just wanted rid.

These dogs are quite frankly terrifying. I was trying to walk down a street with my DS in the pram to get back to our car. There were two outside a shop, on leads but the man 'in control' of them was clearly under the influence and the two XL dogs were jumping up at him, mouthing their leads and growling. I was just trying not to draw attention to us and was practically in the middle of the road passing slowly to get past. There was no way he could have ever controlled them had they decided to attack him or anyone else on that street.

Another owner of one I saw on Facebook trying to stud their dog out. All that they had to say was that they were looking for a bitch to breed him. IMO you shouldn't be breeding a dog unless it is to improve upon or continue on the qualities of the breed. This breed doesn't have any qualities that are conducive with living in a family home.

A few weeks ago a lab near us was killed by two bull terriers whilst out for his night time walk on a lead. They came up and attacked him unprovoked without a human in sight.

I am sorry to say, there is a common theme with the kind of people that keep them. It's all about image and status. And they are OBSESSED with telling people that they are cuddly bears that would do no harm. Or taking pictures of them with children next to them as if to prove the point that they really are so safe. 🙄

My DS and dog don't get to be next to each other atall. I could physically restrain her but I wouldn't want it to come to that. He doesn't understand boundaries yet and I would never put her into that position of feeling threatened that she had to act. They are both my responsibility to keep safe.

I'm glad I live in the countryside and I don't feel like myself or my family (including dog) are at risk whilst just going about our daily life's. I would be horrified if I came upon one of these dogs off lead and under no control. I'm seeing more and more of them out and about in towns. That poor little girl, her last moments must have been full of terror.

There’s absolutely no need for a go fund me page in the first place. A child’s funeral is basically free. Funeral Directors are FOC, so is the crematorium & officiant fee. The Funeral Directors will also make a claim to the children’s funeral fund for the cost of the coffin.

Bull breeds should be banned.

Making money off their child's needless death

@RosaMoline

There’s absolutely no need for a go fund me page in the first place. A child’s funeral is basically free. Funeral Directors are FOC, so is the crematorium & officiant fee. The Funeral Directors will also make a claim to the children’s funeral fund for the cost of the coffin.

Sadly lots of people exploit the death of their child for £££s.

I've met a couple of American Bulls rescued from fighting home and they are the saddest, most frightening things you've ever seen. I've also met American Bull that are much loved family pets.
It has a lot to do with breeding. Some dogs were historically bred for fighting, whether it was bears, lions, each other or guarding, the dogs would have been specifically selected for breeding because of their personality traits. Even in "nice" dog breeds you will get a rogue aggressive dog and a responsible breeder or owner will recognise this and have the dog euthanized.
Some of the dogs on the banned breeds list are there because of dog fighting.
Irresponsible breeders don't temperament check the stud.

I'd worry about any breed with a very young child. It's not sensible to get a new dog while you have very young children in my opinion. Some are definitely worse than others and shouldn't be around children at all. Just because some of the breed are fine if we know some are riskier than others why risk it?

I had a thread on here late last year about discovering my puppy was a ‘banned breed’. She was the sweetest, most intelligent dog I’ve ever met. Sadly (the circumstances are on the thread) we could not keep her. I was willing to upsize the house in to a cheaper area, but the behavioural problem she had needed far more experience than I had (and no vulnerable people around her - ever)

She went to an amazing rescue while still very young, straight into an experienced with large bull breeds foster home with no dc and a huge amount of land. She has now been officially adopted by them and is a wonderful, happy and loving dog.

BUT that is only because:

A) She is in a home with a very large house/extra land.

B) She is with very experienced owners who have handled large bull breeds before, and has had professional behaviourist support since five months old (provided by the rescue).

C) She is able to live in a place with no vulnerable people or stranger coming in and out. She’ll never live/be in the same room as children or the elderly.

I regret giving her up every single day and keep up to date with her progress. But I also know that if she had stayed with us in our circumstances (a family with young dc, in a smal terraced house, with visitors coming and going) then she would probably have attacked, maybe killed someone.

She must have an entire litter out there that may have inherited this behavioural problem, and I dread to think where she would be if we had just sold her on.

I also think people should have a licence to own a dog and that should involve passing an educational course too.

Yes.
So much poor dog behaviour in general around (before anyone jumps on this I’m not saying all dogs, but far too many dogs) that would be helped by this.

A license to own a dog that you can only get if you’ve done an ownership course. A registration for the dog that is linked to the license and issued once the dog has been through training classes. Registration records DNA.
Anyone mistreating a dog is never allowed a license again.
Only registered breeders or experienced rescue centres allowed to sell dogs (ie no puppy farms).
Any dangerous dog behaviour or repeated antisocial behaviour (like allowing dogs to chase birds on our local ‘dogs on leads only’ nature reserve) loses a license holders right to get any new dogs, or existing dog(s) re-homed/ put down depending on severity.
No high risk breeds allowed: because the same breeds pop up time and time again.
Paid for by fines on any dog poo left lying around which could be DNA tested as it’s all registered.

Why don’t we have this?

I think it matters to some extent - illegal breeds tend to be ones that are specifically bred to fight and be violent. They have a strong instinct to attack just like a collie has a strong instinct to heard and it takes a knowledgeable and skilled dog owner to control them and be in charge. But it stands to reason that people who buy illegal dogs aren’t that kind of dog owner. Overall YADNBU though. Whether banned or not some dog breeds are clearly not family dogs unless you have a very experienced and responsible adult in charge, ideally a professional dog trainer (I’ve literally walked past someone who’s Alsatian dragged them through the mud because they couldn’t hold them back on a lead… great, clever dogs, but dangerous I think in the hands of someone with no clue about dogs). On the other hand, lap dogs have been known to kill babies too. I think in general many people don’t actually know how to handle dogs or understand dogs. My MIL treats her tiny dachshund like a baby and he’s a jealous little thing - no chance I would let him near a baby. Sometimes people don’t see these things like that though and it has dire consequences.