Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

[MsWalterMitty]

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

[quote Firefly1987]@Diminutivecob There's a Cane Corso at my local rescue centre atm-only seen a pic but it looks huge-had never heard of the breed before. I used to volunteer for the RSPCA years ago and there was an Akita that was pretty scary but the only dogs I had trouble with were a pitbull (owner in prison big surprise) which grabbed the lead off me and wouldn't give it back and almost bit me. Other dog was a staffie-the most loveable timid dog you would feel so sorry for who loved belly rubs and fuss from people but would go crazy trying to attack any dog it got near. I almost lost control of it once -was ok in the end but that was a big eye opener how dogs can change personality in a nanosecond. That volunteering stressed me out so bad not long after I quit as I didn't feel competent enough to handle some of those dogs.[/quote]
There are some alarming You Tube videos of Pitbulls attacking children-and even adults- not to mention other dogs {Usually much smaller dogs} who were just walking along the street, minding their own business.
Very very frightening.
{Captured on CCTV, mainly}

Yeah I am becoming more fearful in my job because of these breeds . I remember the days when I was worried about staffies , they seem so easy to handle now, compared to their giant cousins !

@RobertaFirmino

Well Jack Russells are nasty, yappy little fuckers but *@Justgorgeous* was asking about Labradors - who seem to be very placid.

FWIW, the parents really do not need all the finger pointing. They found out the hard way.

My nasty yappy little fucker never gets to spend time in the same space as a child. He could definitely inflict life changing injuries if handled wrongly by a child

I should add that the ear cropping that alot of these breeds endure as pups maybe sets them up for a wary ness of humans/vets. It’s not the nicest start in life for them to have their ear tips chopped off while conscious

@Joystir59 can't trust any dog with a child. My kid could make the nicest dog snap if I let him.
Plus a new dog takes months to settle in. New place is scary and you don't know their temperament yet anyway so have to make extra effort

I've just googled XL bully to see what they look like as I've never heard of them. They don't look the least bit cuddlesome to me, they look monstrous and frightening.

I've got a jack russell. If he's holding one of his toys in his jaws I can grab the other end of it and pick him up off the ground. That how strong a small dog's bite it. Any dog can lock it's jaws. Dogs should Never be left with children unsupervised. And all parents should teach their children to never approach or touch a dog they meet in public. Some dogs gate being touched or approached by strangers and will bite without warning. They are dogs. Unpredictable animals who require us to recognise and respect their limitations.

@Joystir59 I agree!

Have always lived by the rule that domesticated pets are always a liability. They can always harm humans of any size.

So, as the human steward, I make sure that there aren't situations that could arise. My dogs and cats were never alone with DC when infants or toddlers. And DC were raised with healthy respect for animals.

Would I have ever entrusted other children with my Pets - no. They hadn't been taught not to tease or torment animals.

Boundaries. Respect. Stewardship. That's what DC need to be taught.

And we adults should never think that pets are anything but animals with animal instincts.

When it devolves to breedist demonization - I don't subscribe. Any breed can react and attack. Some are more or less aggressive or reactive. Some have been socialized more or less. But the animals Are Not Human and don't think like humans. They are animals and it's our responsibility to make sure the animals and human babies aren't in situations that can be be deleterious.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

Yes any dog can attack but it’s never poodles found to have killed a child!!! Let’s be honest there’s a list of about 5 breeds who come up time and time again.

Am “responding” to this post, but am not directing my comments just at this poster - it’s a general response re this type of view. There are a few breeds that some people go for. Im making no apology for that comment, but these results are often the result of poor judgement.

Those breeds are, usually, great in the right type of home/environment. That does NOT mean that those breeds are fine unsupervised around kids - NO breed should be left alone with kids.

The bottom line is - dogs should be (rightly so) hard work. They need socialisation and training to be able to live alongside families. And that’s not alpha/pack leader bullshit training. It’s consistent boundaries that need to be positively encouraged. They shouldn’t beg for food from you. They shouldn’t barge you out the way when going outside. The list could go on, I won’t bore you all.

Never be complacent re the size of your breed. The smallest dogs can be bitty little fuckers, the largest of breeds can be very gentle but will break your kneecaps by barging you out the way at full pelt.

Breed bashing is not constructive. Focussing on human ownership should become more important.

I do get it. Puppies are cute - who wouldn’t want one? If you don’t have the funds for a puppy from a registered breeder, or you don’t want a puppy and want to rescue - so many families are told (quite rightly imo) that their family isn’t suitable to rehome a dog RIGHT NOW. So people get impatient and find one any way they can.

One thing I’d say to parents, if you don’t have a dog, is please I still some rules with your kids. Basic rule is - don’t approach/stroke a dog without the owners permission. I had a giant breed, looked like a big fluffy lion, and the amount of times kids came out of nowhere to run up and try to hug her was worrying. Just because a dog is huge, doesn’t mean that they’re fearless and that you can impose yourself on them.

My giant breed was amazing. She was great with kids, and great with dogs from the get go. On the days I worked, she was at an amazing doggy daycare - they knew her from 10 weeks old. The reason I chose them was that they had good experience of my giant breed. She had at least two years exposure to many breeds/sizes of dog - and was often commented on re how patient she was with some of the smaller/more rambunctious dogs. Until the day that a new dog came for a trial. They called me straight away (I was wfh) so I went over. I had never seen my dog like it - she looked like a wild wolf on the other side of the introduction gate. In the rest of her life, she never reacted that way ever again. But that was a very clear demonstration to me that, no matter what the breed/how loving you think they are/how “whatever” breed is not a danger - you never know wha5 might trigger your dog.

Again, we should all stop with the breed bashing.

Personally, I think that everyone (whether getting a puppy or getting a rescue) should be required by law to attend at least 10 weeks of training classes. I know that’s simplistic and I know it will never happen - which is blooming sad as unintended victims and dogs will continue to pay the price.

@hippyfarmer

Have always lived by the rule that domesticated pets are always a liability. They can always harm humans of any size.

So, as the human steward, I make sure that there aren't situations that could arise. My dogs and cats were never alone with DC when infants or toddlers. And DC were raised with healthy respect for animals.

Would I have ever entrusted other children with my Pets - no. They hadn't been taught not to tease or torment animals.

Boundaries. Respect. Stewardship. That's what DC need to be taught.

And we adults should never think that pets are anything but animals with animal instincts.

When it devolves to breedist demonization - I don't subscribe. Any breed can react and attack. Some are more or less aggressive or reactive. Some have been socialized more or less. But the animals Are Not Human and don't think like humans. They are animals and it's our responsibility to make sure the animals and human babies aren't in situations that can be be deleterious.

I totally agree. My Jack Russell is very cute and that often causes problems in that people see a small cute dog and think he will be friendly and strokable. He rarely wants to be stroked by anyone except me. So I keep it simple when we are out and about. He's steered completely away from children. His mouth is at the same height as small children in buggies. Sometimes parents steer buggies towards us saying 'aww look at the cute doggie'. When I say 'he doesn't like children, keep away'' they can look affronted, as if my dog should be more amenable.

It's partly how the dog is socialised but a dog that has ancestors bred to bite and hold on to a bull has that instinct and strength.

I've known a couple of lovely staffies, one loved to play tug of war with a rubber ring, when the owner got fed up he would hang the ring on a sort of wooden beam (old cottage) and the dog would hang off the ring.

As a child we had a golden retriever, she retrieved everything, things that didn't need retrieving like match boxes as a puppy.

If you are getting a family pet you need to have a dog that likes people and has preferably come from a family.

Breeds like Rottweilers (which can be lovely family pets) have been bread not to be pets and you need to take that into account.

A large dog needs a lot of exercise and a lot of room.

I think we should perhaps have a licencing scheme both for dogs and for humans.

If you want to buy a dog you need to have a licence for your self (expensive unless you have taken a course in dog behaviour) and one for the dog, with different breeds / sizes costing more.

The issue here is the buying and selling of adult dogs as if they are designer handbags you no longer want/need. I didn’t even realise it was a ‘thing’ until my beautician told me she was ‘rescuing’ and ‘rehoming’ a Pomeranian. In the conversation she mentioned money. She was actually paying £1500 for the dog. I pointed out she was in fact buying a used dog (for want of a better expression) and wasn’t either rehoming or rescuing in the truest sense of the words. And she had a toddler. And had already another dog she had previously been unable to afford the vet bills for. Turns out that the owners of the Pom were keeping other dogs but selling this one. I questioned why anyone would be selling a ‘much loved’ family dog. To me, it would be like selling one of your children. They are part of the family.

Dogs are not commodities. The sooner we ban the sale of adult dogs like this in the UK, the less likely tragic incidents like this will occur.

People behave stupidly with dogs and young children. I often see footage on social media that’s supposed to be cute of dogs licking or snuggling the faces of young babies whilst parents film from across the room. It makes me cringe. They have no idea how damaging even a little nip can be to a child’s face.

@Aworldofmyown

All breeders should have to be licensed and vetted. No dogs should be sold with the ability to be bred from.

How the heck is that going to work?

Neutering dogs prepubertally increases the risks of a variety of things including anxiety, sound phobias, fear related behaviours (and much aggression is rooted in fear) and also painful conditions such as cruciate ligament tears.

And how are you going to police that exactly - confiscate and euthanise entire litters of puppies, thats gonna be so popular, taxpayers money used to destroy litters of puppies!

Who will set the licencing conditions and monitor them - we can't effectively monitor the god awful yet 'legit' puppy farms we have, and they're meant to be monitored regularly by the local authorities!

@Orchid18

This pic was posted on an XL Bully Facebook group and is purportedly of the killer dog. It looks very cute and cuddly. Who knows what caused the dog to attack? The poor little girl must've been terrified in her last moments, a tragedy which could have been avoided. Her parents have to live with their decision to bring this dog into the home and will be haunted by what they saw for the rest of their lives.

I think they are gorgeous and cuddly. I have an olde english bulldogge so they have very similar faces so they are adorable to me. I'd love to see a size comparison.

Selling adult dogs should be illegal.

And I don’t get this notion that the parents should be immune from criticism because they have paid the ultimate price. If a parent doesn’t strap their child into a car and has an accident and the child is killed do we say “well, we shouldn’t criticise them because they have paid the ultimate price,”? In fact, if the child had just been seriously injured instead of killed would we be sympathising with them?

They knowingly bought an unknown powerful dog from a stranger on the internet. I am not of the view that all dogs are monsters waiting to kill innocent children but there are certain breeds who are powerful enough that if they do bite, then the damage they can do is untold. And these people had no idea what kind of dog they were buying, what temperament it had when they bought it home to their 17 month old child.

Yes, they paid the ultimate price. But they are to blame for that and IMO should be charged with manslaughter.

I assume the dog has been destroyed?

I've always had dogs. Growing up with a Labrador, Doberman and Border Collie. I now have a spaniel cross poodle and partner has a rescue greyhound cross. Both delightful.
I used to have ponies and many of the other women on the yard had Staffs - they were the most obedient and friendly dogs I've ever met, never needed to be on a lead.
My sister has mastiffs and English bulldogs and they are so soppy. My friend has the softest American bull who is delightful with people and other dogs.
The most snappy and aggressive dogs I've ever met are Jack Russells - I'd never have one. My aunt was an A&E nurse and said that most dog injuries she saw were caused by JRs (this was a long time ago though).
Very very sad story and the reason why rescue centres don't rehome to families with children.

It’s not “breed bashing” to recognise that some dogs are more likely to kill than others. Two questions-

• can I completely guarantee 100% that my dog will never attack anyone? (The answer to this is no, btw)

• If my dog attacked someone, what would happen?

I have no time for anyone claiming that it’s solely down to the owners or that their fighting dog was actually a sweet, soppy old thing. They’re all sweet soppy old things until they’re not. It’s as irresponsible as having a loaded gun lying around.

Too many people buy super strong muscular dogs that they can’t control. Any dog can turn, but I would rather be bit by a tiny dog that I could kick away than a strong dog that can’t be prised away. Most deaths (or serious damage) are from Staffy crosses (pit bulls are still out there despite the ban), Rottweilers, American Bulldogs and Mastiffs.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom

Crikey @CanIPleaseHaveOne. I imagine you reported this to the police. What is happening to the dog?

I hate it when people say “it’s the owner, not the dog” or “oh my mastiff/Rottweiler/American Bull dog/Staffy cross is so soppy. She wouldn’t hurt a fly.”

Any dog can turn. If you’re not a physically strong person then you should not have a huge muscular dog like the ones I mentioned above. They shouldn’t be off the lead in public and should be kept away from children.

There's so much misinformation out there on these dogs.

A quick Google brings up things like 'perfect family dogs who have had the aggression bred out of them' etc

The American XL bully FB pages are quite worrisome. And on alot of them there's clearly people using FB to sell them. Not even hiding it.

I honestly, don't believe anyone when they claim they love these sorts of breeds because they are sweet and a big Teddy bear really etc.

At least one adult in the household wants them because they think it makes them look like they 'well 'ard' and to give an impression of being intimidating. Usually men, who feel quite inadequate in someone way.

Again the FB pages show exactly this.

@Diminutivecob

I should add that the ear cropping that alot of these breeds endure as pups maybe sets them up for a wary ness of humans/vets. It’s not the nicest start in life for them to have their ear tips chopped off while conscious

Ear cropping is repulsive. It is also illegal.

I'm at a loss to understand why we see cropped dogs in the UK, and why nothing is done about it.

I certainly can't imagine a vet risking their career by cropping a dog's ears, or unnecessarily docking a tail save on those working breeds where it is permitted to prevent injury.

Yanbu. No one needs a strong dog. (Except police and farmers).