Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

[MsWalterMitty]

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

Actually I agree with a pp that banning doesn't do much good largely because what breed a dog "is" is very difficult to legislate for. In practical terms it doesn't really work

But we do need to start having frank conversations about the potential impact of owning a powerful dog and the possible consequences of when things go wrong. To say to people that all dogs can bite but with some when they do you are looking at potential serious injury or even death. Not only from poorly trained dogs either. A dog with an undetected injury or illness can become aggressive, it happens. If it happens in your living environment and it's a powerful dog bred for fighting you will not be able to stop it. We need to hammer home this point so that people understand the risks they are taking on, without this constant Greek chorus of "soft as shite ... wouldn't hurt a fly".

@Zerrin13

I'm a 56 year old granny. I dont have any tattoos and I dont live on a council estate. My youngest dog is a Staffy XL Bully.

Do you worry about it being near your grandkids?

@Zerrin13

I'm a 56 year old granny. I dont have any tattoos and I dont live on a council estate. My youngest dog is a Staffy XL Bully.

And what is it bringing to your life that a breed that doesn't savage children to death would not offer?

American Bullies were bred from American Pit Bull Terriers.

Legal or not, I would not ever have one in my home or around a child.

I am sick of people and organisations - including dog shelters - peddling irresponsible myths about pit bull type dogs and 'bully breeds'. Such as claiming they are "nanny dogs" that are good family pets and were bred for family protection or companionship. Rubbish. They were bred for bull baiting and fighting. Newer lines, like American Bullies, are descended from these older lines and retain many characteristics.

It's not all upbringing, a good portion is genetics. Same with pointer dogs that point or herding dogs that herd. Quite a lot is instinctive.

These breeds snap at much higher rates than other breeds.

I feel terribly sorry for this little girl and this family, and I think it's vitally important to talk about so that other families don't make the mistake of getting dangerous breeds, whether the particular breed they purchase is legal or not.

Of course it's the breed. This country is ridiculous for obsessing over these dangerous dogs. Something needs to be done.

@CounsellorTroi

Labs are in the top of these lists because yes they sometimes do bite/ can be aggressive. Because they are so popular - every 2nd owner seems to have a lab for eg - obviously that tips the scales a bit coz there's more labs around to possibly bite. So you get a high number of bites by Labrador reported.

I've actually known a few aggressive Labs, obviously it wasn't their fault but people just assume they are great family dogs - and mostly they are! But they need what all dogs need, training and socialisation and to never be left unsupervised with children.

I’m willing to bet that many lab bites happen because parents get them for their kids and don’t teach the kids to interact with the dog properly so it gets teased and provoked beyond its endurance. So many dogs in rescue centres are described as being unable to live with children under 14 and this is the reason.

Yes I would put good money on something like that too.

I think also the rescues are aware enough of animal behaviour to know that all dogs have the potential to bite, so understandably cover their arses with this clause even if the dog seems fine with children.

A lot of people make silly assumptions about various animals because of type/breed. At the end of the day they are animals and most of them have sharp teeth or other dangerous bits about them. Sensible people take precautions and aren't laissez faire about the potential for harm.

That doesn't mean that dogs/animals are scary and should be avoided. It means we as humans have a responsibility to be very aware of the behaviour of the animals under our care or around us.

So it's silly to cross a field full of cows. Don't walk behind a horse. Don't poke and pull at the dog. Don't frighten the cat etc etc.

Injuries happen mostly because people have chosen the incorrect animal for their situation, poor training because they can't be arsed or don't know what they should be doing and are unaware of what the behaviours mean and how to keep everyone happy and safe.

I've yet to meet a puppy born of any breed that was an inherently aggressive dog. I've only ever known truly aggressive and lots of reactive dogs (including my own dog who is a rehome from a less than ideal start) due to poor treatment and training or medical reasons.

Good grief.
Wasn't it an XL rAmerican Bulldog that killed that poor 10 year old boy last year?
These things are brutes, bred to maim and kill bulls...so what chance a child or even an innocent pet dog?

This pic was posted on an XL Bully Facebook group and is purportedly of the killer dog. It looks very cute and cuddly. Who knows what caused the dog to attack? The poor little girl must've been terrified in her last moments, a tragedy which could have been avoided. Her parents have to live with their decision to bring this dog into the home and will be haunted by what they saw for the rest of their lives.

*I am sick of people and organisations - including dog shelters - peddling irresponsible myths about pit bull type dogs and 'bully breeds'. Such as claiming they are "nanny dogs" that are good family pets and were bred for family protection or companionship. Rubbish. They were bred for bull baiting and fighting. Newer lines, like American Bullies, are descended from these older lines and retain many characteristics.

It's not all upbringing, a good portion is genetics. Same with pointer dogs that point or herding dogs that herd. Quite a lot is instinctive*

Spot on about instinct.

We had a Lurcher puppy selected by RSPCA as a ''Good match''.
The chase instinct was hardwired into her.
Just as it is a Border Collie to herd, or a Jack Russell to catch rats.

Genetics has a large part to play in temperament and drive.

@Orchid18

This pic was posted on an XL Bully Facebook group and is purportedly of the killer dog. It looks very cute and cuddly. Who knows what caused the dog to attack? The poor little girl must've been terrified in her last moments, a tragedy which could have been avoided. Her parents have to live with their decision to bring this dog into the home and will be haunted by what they saw for the rest of their lives.

Cute and cuddly? Completely disagree there.

All I see there is bone crushing jaws.
The width of it's mouth, a baby wouldn't;t stand a chance.

@Clymene

In the last year, 44 children have been murdered. 3 children were killed by dogs. No children should by men OR dogs.

I'm sure her parents dote on their kids. It's taken them 2 days to set up a goFundMe.

What is their GoFundMe raising money for, please?

I'd have thought raising money would be the last thing on anyone's mind so soon after losing a child.

@CockingASnook

The type of insecure individual who wants to own a dog like an American Bully XL is exactly the sort of person who shouldn’t be allowed to own one.

Absolutely.

I was bitten by our pet labrador when I was about the same age as this poor little girl. Completely out of the blue, never happened before or since (yes my parents kept the dog! It died when I was about 6 and I loved it). My mum was in the room at the time and couldn't tell you why it happened, perhaps I poked her or woke her up, who knows, or perhaps it was completely unprovoked. Quite a bad bite-always had the scars all my life so was used to it but over the years realised it must've been worse than I thought (think my mum downplayed it out of guilt) and now the scars really bother me. Obviously I was lucky in the grand scheme of things.

Anyway, the point is my mum was in the room and if it had been a dog that is prone to a frenzied attack there would be nothing any adult could do to prevent fatal or life changing injuries. An adult supervising in this type of situation is not going to help. These types of dogs just need to be kept away from children altogether imo. Before I was bitten I'm sure my parents never would've dreamed our dog would've done that to me and we've had all sorts of labs over the years brought up exactly the same-they all had very different personalities.

So in cases of domestic violence, children can be removed where one parent (usually the mother) refuses to leave the violent parent (the father) because this puts the child at risk and the parents are not trusted to put the child first.

Owning a dog like this should have the exact same consequences.

Those are not family pets, they are monsters.

Oakley - I like bully breeds, so to me it does look cuddly. I'm not saying it's not dangerous because clearly it was, but I wouldn't be frightened if I saw this dog, whereas I'd be wary of a GSD. Maybe that makes these dogs more of a risk because they do look appealing to some eyes, and are often referred to as 'cuddle bugs'. I don't agree with the breeding practices where some of these dogs end up with very short legs and squat faces leading to health problems, but that's another issue.
LakieKady - it seems that the GoFundMe is to pay for the funeral. There are also various online raffles to raise funds. It wouldn't be my first thought either, but I think in some communities it's important to have a big showy send off. If it brings them some comfort and people are happy to donate then good luck to them.

[quote OohRahhMaki123]The pretty grim stats on what breeds kill in the UK can be found here. It really is shocking to see the number that have been killed within the last 2 years by these breeds.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom[/quote]
Scary reading the details of all those attacks and to see that several were from rescue centres

@Orchid18

Oakley - I like bully breeds, so to me it does look cuddly. I'm not saying it's not dangerous because clearly it was, but I wouldn't be frightened if I saw this dog, whereas I'd be wary of a GSD. Maybe that makes these dogs more of a risk because they do look appealing to some eyes, and are often referred to as 'cuddle bugs'. I don't agree with the breeding practices where some of these dogs end up with very short legs and squat faces leading to health problems, but that's another issue. LakieKady - it seems that the GoFundMe is to pay for the funeral. There are also various online raffles to raise funds. It wouldn't be my first thought either, but I think in some communities it's important to have a big showy send off. If it brings them some comfort and people are happy to donate then good luck to them.

Most funeral directors will do childrens funerals for no cost. No need for a Go fund me unless they want something really extravagent.

I have worked with dogs for years and I feel dread when I know a bully or a caine Corsa is coming in. When under pressure and worried they don’t just do a warning snap or growl - they go into attack mode. I can see it in their facial expression and body language the moment when they have made the decision to attack. So far I have got out of their way just in time.

I also dread Akita, and Alaskan malamutes, although they tend to try and bite when stressed then back off. But due to their size just one bite can kill.

@LabelMaker

Googled it and one of the websites said it was ideal for families. Also I don't think it's at all helpful to anyone to call it a stupid choice. They are suffering so much right now.

Not as much as the child did. Being mauled by an animal is a horrific death.

@FungalLurkins

It is worth remembering just how rare fatal dog attacks are. There are 12.5 million dogs in the UK (according to Google) and there have been roughly 3 fatal attacks per year in the last seven years. There are roughly 33 million men in the UK and there are 600 homicides per year, as roughly 92% of perpetrators are male, we can call that 550.

So the odds of a man killing are 550/33000000 = 0.00001666666

Odds of dog killing 3/12000000 = 0.00000024

Both tiny odds but the dogs odds are a whole two zeros more infinitesimal.

So on average a man is about 50 times more likely to kill someone than a dog is.

Not saying we should ban men btw but just trying to highlight how bad humans are at rational risk perception.

There is a lot in what you are saying there @FungalLurkins

I would love your analysis on life changing injuries or bad bites?

My dd got a bite on her foot Xmas eve. The dog ( a rescue mix) has a history of biting. I did not know this.

The dog is not that big but it pierced through her foot, and would not let go. Her bones were damaged, it is still not healed (3 months later), and she has a very big, livid, purple scar. Not to mention the money it cost us!

The owners were sorry for sure but according to them dd should not have run past the dog, should not have pulled her foot back because it made the dog hold on tighter, should not have shouted/screamed/cried/ as it made the dog mad, and so on.

In short everything was the fault of the child and nothing was their fault or the dogs.

@Orchid18

This pic was posted on an XL Bully Facebook group and is purportedly of the killer dog. It looks very cute and cuddly. Who knows what caused the dog to attack? The poor little girl must've been terrified in her last moments, a tragedy which could have been avoided. Her parents have to live with their decision to bring this dog into the home and will be haunted by what they saw for the rest of their lives.

Terrified??

In PAIN.

What an appaling way to die.

Babyroobs - lots of people have pointed out that funeral costs would be covered, but not things like a horse and carriage, or a bespoke coffin. People also saying that they caused the death, so should pay for everything themselves, especially as they could afford to buy an expensive dog. I'm not saying what's right or wrong although I have more sympathy for parents of children killed in Ukraine who won't be able to have a fancy funeral 😢

Totally agree. It seems so clearly obtuse for people to constantly say that it’s the owner not the dog when clearly and time and time again it is the same breeds that cause deaths. Yes I believe that you can raise these breeds right and have a lovely dog, but unfortunately the risk is much higher and I’m sorry but the benefit of that breed existing vs the risk is not worth it. All dogs can ve dangerous, but as a dog owner the “nature” aspect of my dog is SO STRONG, she is clearly meant to retrieve things - she has been amazing at this from day dot. If she was a breed bread for fighting, no doubt she would be amazing at this too - and therefore not safe around children. Simple logic.

@Diminutivecob There's a Cane Corso at my local rescue centre atm-only seen a pic but it looks huge-had never heard of the breed before. I used to volunteer for the RSPCA years ago and there was an Akita that was pretty scary but the only dogs I had trouble with were a pitbull (owner in prison big surprise) which grabbed the lead off me and wouldn't give it back and almost bit me. Other dog was a staffie-the most loveable timid dog you would feel so sorry for who loved belly rubs and fuss from people but would go crazy trying to attack any dog it got near. I almost lost control of it once -was ok in the end but that was a big eye opener how dogs can change personality in a nanosecond. That volunteering stressed me out so bad not long after I quit as I didn't feel competent enough to handle some of those dogs.

I have an American bulldog. He's huge! So soft and lovely but even him jumping playfully at someone could seriously hurt them because of his size. Very strong