To what extent would you say the UK is a racist country?

[VladmirsPoutine]

Bear with me on this. This thread is a culmination of some of the other threads I've been on and don't wish to derail. But thinking about for example ChildQ and the extent to which what happened to her was racially motivated, considering say the treatment of MM in the press which had a private school girl ostensibly painted as being 'straigh outta the hood'. I know that the UK is highlighted as one of the most racially tolerant places in the world, if not Europe. But just on the face of it I wonder, do you think the UK has a 'race problem'?

@allBeingATwatItsABingThing you are imagining that I already knew the history behind it when I reached there.
Think when you are walking on the road with music, suddenly one boy was being pushed. You don't know if they knew each other.
When I saw it first I didn't expect actually that will be a racial issue at all. I thought it may be 2 boys some rivalry or may be taking revenge thing would be happening(like some one insulted someone then other day their big brother comes for revenge).
I asked many things because I just wanted to know who started it all, like the situations in the park if children fight. When the boy told that he doesn't know him shock then I realised that it was a racist act.
Knowing already that it was a racist act and then asking him "did you do something to him?" would have been victim blaming ..... but here I don't see it.

There are many ways of determining what has happened without resorting to victim blaming. When dealing with school issues (I’m a teacher so do this a lot) and a child has pushed another child, I don’t ask the victim what they did to provoke the pusher. I ask what happened, from their point of view, to lead up to this event.

I wouldn’t ever berate someone for not shouting out after a random attack on them. That’s victim blaming.

Ask yourself:

Would you ask a woman what she did to deserve being sexually assaulted?

Would you ask a child what they did to deserve being physically abused?

Even if this attack hadn’t been racially motivated, what could the boy have possibly done to deserve being shoved over by an adult?

@Comefromaway

I really think the media has created this polarised view of how the world works that scapegoats POC by aligning them next to structural problems. It’s as though there is a benign message being fed through to us the whole time which we absorb and it’s only once people have the headspace to think outside it they recognise the incredulity of the messaging. But if you are white and privileged, I think it ends there as ultimately you are not identified as being responsible for the problems whereas this subtle, drip feed of negative messages implies that POC are.

I watched for the first time the Oprah interview with MM and cannot understand how people could be critical of her and Harry yet the papers/media at the time had really got into that space with people and polluted it with negative suggestion.

I am a foreigner married to a British man.

British husband comes from middle class family. I come from upper class. My parents monthly income is higher then my whole husband’ family and extended family yearly salary combined.

However I am looked down because of my accent and also not having a perfect English (of course it’s not my mother tongue).

People just assume I come from a poor place (I am from a developing country), I’m uneducated and came to England to survive. My MIL, knowing the extent of my family’s wealth, still look down on us. Whenever someone asks about my family they get shocked.

My personal experience is yes English people can be racist and look down on foreigners. Unless is some very poor person, so they can feel better trying to “save” them.

@aspargusaubergine it's interesting you say "English" not "British".

RedWingBoots That’s because I live in England.

I forgot to mention, I’m mixed race. Brown skin and natural straight hair.

@aspargusaubergine

I come from upper class. My parents monthly income is higher then my whole husband’ family and extended family yearly salary combined.

You have equated class with income/money and that doesn’t gel well with our society.

I also think that some people are acutely aware of your background and sense that you make them feel inferior and are just making sure they get in their first. That’s when British society all of a sudden becomes a paragon of equality and meritocracy.

But international class definers don’t work here as subtly they are trying to remind you that there is a latent class system based on other things that prevails here.

You didn’t place yourself within those definitions and that’s what they are recognising. I think if you had said you went to a certain school/university/lived in a certain area it would have had more clout.

But then who wants to live in a world where people only gain respect because their parents earn a huge amount of money? It’s crass and shallow to define yourself this way.

@Saku I think you’re getting an unnecessarily hard time here because your (perfectly excellent) English clearly isn’t your first language and it’s coming through subtley in your mode of expression, but it’s perfectly clear what you mean. You were trying to understand the background to the incident before you responded to it or made assumptions and you were shocked that the poor kid hadn’t reacted. You weren’t blaming him. Just surprised. I get it. Victims are often shocked into silence, too, though.

SenoraMiasma

I agree. So what aren’t they respecting me then? Why some people ust assume I’m straight from the hood just because of my skin tone and foreigner accent? I mentioned the wealth background because they wouldn’t dare look down on a British person with the same background as mine.

@allJesusInTheCabbageVan I already replied this.. I am not going to reply it again.
@BeingATwatItsABingThing I would never ask that to sexually/domestically/physically assaulted people that what they did to provoke so they deserved this treatment ........ that will be a terrible thing one can ever ask.

And why on earth I will berate a random 11yo boy who is already hurt, what I will gain? I had full sympathy with him.
Yes I agree if I would have asked "What happened?" instead it would have been better. But my intention was same; to get the matter why it was happening and does he has any idea or not(to get his POV).

@asparagus

That’s about them, not you. The limits of their knowledge of the world and they’ve gone into survival, defensive mode where they revert to the simplest sense of identity.

🙂

Sorry hit the post button too soon.

And I’ve never mentioned my background to anyone.

And that’s very amusing actually. Nobody knows anything about my family (apart from my husband’s family of course). People just assume the worst scenario.

@aspargusaubergine

But they sense all of the things in you that privilege brings - good health, well presented, etc. I think you just make people feel shabby and ‘less’ in response and they instinctively seek to rectify it.

Not your fault, of course.

@Saku I don't dispute that your intentions were good, but if you witness another unprovoked assault in future, the best thing is just to offer the victim help and support. You don't need to investigate it yourself, and definitely don't tell the victim how they should have behaved! Even more so if they're already vulnerable.

@LaurieFairyCake

Very tolerant compared to majority of other countries

Still racist as fuck

Beautifully and succinctly put, @LaurieFairyCake!

or when it comes up being asked "what do x community think about this?" as if I can comment for everyone of colour!

While annoying and also a little crazy if you think about it, this is very much the result of being told that anyone white needs to not have an opinion and ask "PoC" what they think about any and all issues that pertain to race and ethnicity.

As a concept, that really only works if you believe there is one type of opinion among that group, or at least only one that most people hold. And in fact you see that quite often whenever dissenting people or writers or public intellectuals are mentioned "those people are outliers, they don't represent the X view" often with some rather unpleasant language or sentiment that they are somehow self-hating individuals - the race version of calling them handmaidens.

People who are perhaps not all that insightful but want to "do better" as they say take such direction from activists to heart. SO of course they ask, and want to amplify and privilege voices from whatever group they think needs to be elevated.

I do think the UK has a long way to go with regards to combating racism.

The media including tv programming and advertising is bending over backwards to be seen as NOT racist. Hence so many adverts depicting a white person with a black person.

Dramas where the main protagonist is black and their partner is white.

Yet many many black couples , Indian couples , south East Asian couples, eastern couples, Arabic couples also exist but the media seems to want to 'blend' white and black.

It's like these household named companies want to 'be seen ' as being not racist when they're only trying to appeal to as many people as possible.
Yet still appeasing white people.

I gather there was a backlash against a supermarket just two years ago which attracted a backlash over featuring a black family at Christmas.

I live in a part of England that supplies huge volumes of soft fruit as well as orchard fruit to the supermarkets.
These farms are completely reliant on Eastern European pickers. Many from Ukraine!
The level of hostility towards them is absolutely shameful.
Interestingly a number of these fruit farms have ceases to trade as the Eastern Europeans feel no longer welcome, thanks to Brexit. Hence fruit crops have been left to rot.
These pickers would spend months in draughty cold tents or substandard caravans just to provide the uk markets with 'locally sourced' fruit/veg.

Yet the white middle class keep espousing the ' locally sourced' mantra, particularly on MN .

@BeingATwatItsABingThing

Covertly, yes. I am white British but from the experiences I’ve heard from PoC, there is a lot of racism.

I personally have not experienced racism but I am a woman and have experienced the covert sexism Britain has to offer. Sure, on paper, women are equal to men, but not really. If the racism is anything like this, then it is definitely a problem!

Sadly, it's not all that covert imo. You get plenty of people who think they're being subtle, with all the "I'm not a racist but ... (insert racist comment of your choice)" comments.

Some of my in-laws are openly racist. When they make racist comments, they think they're just speaking a truth that the woke, Guardian-reading fraternity refuse to accept is true.

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

Of FFS. Talk about wanting to find fault with everything.

Nobody is trying to find the fault in "everything".

The statement of black skin being unusual is harmful, especially to a child on the receiving end of it.

Teaching children to simply ignore colour is not the same as teaching children to understand and embrace difference.

If you live in a place where people with dark skin are, say, 5% of the population, it is unusual.

You don't have to teach kids this, they know it because they are not blind or morons.

All that will happen if you try and pretend it isn't so is cause a cognitive dissonance. Something they know, but it's allowed to be said. That never has good results.

What you can do is try to cultivate, to some extent, an environment where that's just seen as another standard human difference, just like having red hair and freckled skin or olive skin and dark hair, and possibly different ethnic background, each with their own history, that relate to them. It's not always easy to make that happen in a perfect way, but it's an ideal. Much as if you go to a country like Canada no one will take any real notice if your ancestors happened to be French, English, or Irish, though 100 years ago it would have been.

But if you think that you can prevent children from noticing that some people look different, you are very much mistaken, it's even less likely than with adults who have some capacity to self-censor their thoughts.

@ldontWanna

* 2.18 Over the same period, 25 children under the age of 18 were subject of ‘further searches’. 19 were male and 18 were handcuffed during the process. The reasons for search primarily related to suspicions about drugs (20), followed by weapons (4) and stolen property (1). 22 (88%) of the searches were negative with an outcome of no further action recorded in 20 (80%) of the cases. In terms of ethnicity, (as per the codes used by the police), 15 (60%) of the children searched were Black, 2 were White, 6 Asian and 2 Arab or North African.*

Nothing to see here either.

Do you also feel that this shows the police were being sexist?

Numbers like this are meaningless without context.

@Itsnotover

You say racism is not something white people can comment on.

Why?

@MangyInseam what more context do you need?

But the statistics were published in the context of child Q's case review. People kept saying we can't be sure this wouldn't have happened to a white person/girl. The statistics show that the children strip searched were predominantly non white . Which answers that question, and it was a valid enough argument to be included in the review.

Seriously you read that POC , children , are strip searched more frequently than white children and you ask about context?!? That's your issue with the stats?

[quote EmpressCixi]@Burgoo,

Your racism definition:
The new definition that Merriam-Webster have suggested includes:
"Racism is prejudice combined with social and institutional power"

Isn’t from Merriam-Webster at all.
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

The current definition of racism suggested by Merriam-Webster is

1. : a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2. a) the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another
   b) a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles[/quote]
   Merriam-Webster don't make the laws of this country. If you want to discuss racism in this country use the legal definition.

I think an emerging problem is how racism is trying to be eliminated. I am currently in a situation where I can't even give feedback to a colleague because of my white privelage which then eliminates any realistic feedback I can give to my colleague.

There is also a lot of issue with regards to the usage of POC etc which generates resistance from some POC before the conversation has even started!

Within my organisation there is a genuine fear of saying the wrong thing to a black person (especially) in case it's deemed racist.

@Saku

I saw a white boy 19-20yo old was on his bike with Deliveroo backpack. He pushed a 11-12yo black boy while riding past him in very fast speed from behind. The younger boy was returning from the school, had his school bag, his lunchbox and water bottle all threw on footpath and bottle rolled down a bit far. Then the white boy looked back on him and gave a wicked smile. It was on a busy road but no one was near him (some white boys,girls with same age, same school were further to him) on footpath.

I was very much far behind but could see it clearly. I got shocked and dishearten by this and almost ran to him when he was also in shock looking his bruised elbow, picking his lunch box and bottle. I reached and asked "Is he OK and If he said anything bad to that boy, why he pushed him?"
The boy said he didn't say or do anything and he doesn't recognise this white boy, never seen him before. Then I asked him " then why didn't you say/ask anything to him?" I told him if he wont voice for himself how others will come to help.
The young lad was very shy and was looking very embarrassed (may be because he fell down as my ds does sometimes).
He trotted away. I told him to tell to his parents about the incident as he went off.
I know it is one lone incident. But it was totally racist.
(I was puzzled what I could do about it and got terrified if that would have happened with my ds in anyways)

Just out of interest what made you think this was racially motivated?

[quote ldontWanna]@MangyInseam what more context do you need?

But the statistics were published in the context of child Q's case review. People kept saying we can't be sure this wouldn't have happened to a white person/girl. The statistics show that the children strip searched were predominantly non white . Which answers that question, and it was a valid enough argument to be included in the review.

Seriously you read that POC , children , are strip searched more frequently than white children and you ask about context?!? That's your issue with the stats?[/quote]
To make it even clearer, out of all the children strip searched in that area within a certain timescale less than 1% were white.