To what extent would you say the UK is a racist country?

[VladmirsPoutine]

Bear with me on this. This thread is a culmination of some of the other threads I've been on and don't wish to derail. But thinking about for example ChildQ and the extent to which what happened to her was racially motivated, considering say the treatment of MM in the press which had a private school girl ostensibly painted as being 'straigh outta the hood'. I know that the UK is highlighted as one of the most racially tolerant places in the world, if not Europe. But just on the face of it I wonder, do you think the UK has a 'race problem'?

@Cheeserton

Having lived in several other European countries, I can say that the UK is way ahead of most on this. Plenty of racism still though, no doubt, , but the significant efforts to address it are often seemingly totally overlooked in many debates. My view is supported by other mixed or minority families we know with similar experiences in other places. We do love to constantly kick the UK... Which is not to say that there's no reason ever for sure, but some balance is often missing and that's not helpful.

Yep. Putting in the effort and solving it isn't the same. Also @ChoiceMummy I'm quite appalled at the comments I've heard r.e. white people. Among other things I was warned against dating a white man because 'white people have no family values', he'd be happy to divorce me, etc etc. Also that white girls are easy and deserve to be raped because they get drunk and wear short skirts.

The prevailing narrative is that white people are racist and must be sensitive to others. That's not true at all. In fact a lot of Asians also look down on black people... look down on the lower caste... I could go on.

I don't think it's racist compared to other countries. I think everywhere has a degree of prejudice but in the UK you can get on regardless of who you are.

@Wedontcare123

I am literally quoting what Universities have said recently in "BAME" forums (spaces, conferences etc) with black people. POC said in these conversations that they don't find written assignments particularly accessible. Sometimes because its a second language, sometimes because of the Westernised standard of what is "academia".

I was literally advocating making things easier for ANYONE who struggles with huge essays to show their knowledge. For example, I have friends who simply aren't all that great at writing assignments. Why? Who knows! But ask them to explain a concept verbally and they outdo others by a huge degree. So why not allow people who are better speaking their points do that?

I was NOT (as you seem to be implying) saying that POC can't write. Not in any way. My point is based on what POC have told our University! Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative.

I also want to point out that I am not a fan of saying "compared to X we are a tolerant nation". I am unsure whether that is meant to be some sort of self-congratulation but it isn't. Just because the UK doesn't treat minority groups like China has been in recent years doesn't mean we are somehow off the hook.

The UK is in the top 5% of countries in terms of tolerance. Racism feels like a problem because we actually take it seriously, therefore it's always in the news and racism is claimed as a cause of almost any disparity (stop & search, prison population, Covid risk, Covid jab take-up, education, housing, employment for example).

The fact it's always front and centre in our brains makes us think it must be a massive problem. Actually, it's the opposite. It's the countries where racism is tolerated where the problem lies.

I'm currently in a situation where I was recently asked to give feedback on a colleague and I stated at times this colleague can come across as rude and aggressive. I am white she is black. Both black and white colleagues also view her as this and she is generally known as a toxic personality. I am now been asked to attend an informal meeting about this comment owing to my white privelage and the connotations of the stereotype 'angry black woman'. I have no idea what to do because this woman is horrible to be around but feel I can't say anything to her. I have no idea what to do, other than acknowledge my white privelage and how my comment could have been perceived without any due consideration for the fact that this woman is actually toxic.

At the moment I am losing my mind with worry about both this meeting and the fact I have to continue to work with this woman.

Not a nice situation to be in, Hobgoblin, but you're not a victim of racism here. Your problem is you work for a woke organisation who are frightened to be seen as racist and are not providing equal protection for all employees.

RE: The racism against white people part of the conversation

Black (and a small, vocal number of white) scholars have apparently changed the definition in recent years (probably the last 20 or so).

It has now encompassed a power element. It used to be:

"The belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another."

The new definition that Merriam-Webster have suggested includes:

"Racism is prejudice combined with social and institutional power".

So basically if you have prejudice it is just that. However if you have prejudice and you have social or institutional power then you are being racist. Which leads to the conclusion that you can't be racist against someone in power because they haven't got the potential to oppress you.

Do I agree? Its hard to say. I think it is helpful to notice a power dynamic and at the same time I think that if we just ignore that these things are a two way street it can be a tad messy. I mean, if your boss is black or Asian, would it be fair to say that you cannot be racist toward them? Even though they have the power in that dynamic? No of course not. That would be nonsensical.

I always find it a little dubious when it comes to social or political movements changing the definitions of words to fit a narrative.

Interestingly I must admit that I have read SO much on this issue since the BLM explosion a few years ago. Including:

White Supremacy and Me - Layla Saad
White Privilege - Robin DiAngelo
Back to Black - Kehinde Andrews
Biased - Jennifer Eberhardt
Why I No Longer Talk To White People about Race - Reni Eddo-Lodge
The Black Friend: On Being a Better White Person - Frederick Joseph
Natives - Akala

I found only Eberhardt's work to be nuanced and balanced and really respected her ability to combine evidence with her own personal narrative. Akala certainly has an impressive ability to explore the subject. Saad was perhaps the most sickeningly disgraceful piece of work I have read and DiAngelo loves cashing in on the suffering of black people. She then claims to be enlightened whilst using a circular (and rather gas-lighting) narrative that if you deny being racist then you have white fragility and this shows you are, in fact, racist.

Many of these works now add a power and oppression component and I am always curious as to why people feel the need to change definitions.

@CremeEggThief

Agree with what you've said except I have not said nor do I feel I am a victim of racism here.

I now suspect we were intentionally told very little about important parts of our history in order to keep us all divided and also because a lot of it is shameful. I have made a point of learning what was never taught and also teaching my DC about it.

I don't suspect this, I know it. Not sure what decade it was that we all surrendered control of our children's brains to the likes of Mr Williamson and the basement extender, but recent events should have made everyone look at state education in a new light.

I don't really care how it ranks against other countries, it's plenty racist enough. the fact it's better than some other place widely described as very racist isn't much comfort

I'm a white immigrant, OH is brown british. We are frequently treated very differently in the same situations

It is hilarious that so many people say that you can't experience racism if you are white. I am white but my hair is dark brown. But you are saying that it isn't racism when (mainly blonde) people call me the N-word, the P-word, or say that they "know I am lying" when I say I am not Jewish? Or when they assume that I had an arranged marriage?

I have had other white people with darker hair than me be racist and/or xenophobic towards me.

So it hasn't happened to you. Good for you. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT NEVER HAPPENS!!!! And it is not exactly polite of you to claim that. It is neither woke nor politically correct either. It doesn't exactly make you an ally of people who experience racism that you deny many incidents of racism.

@Burgoo

Really interesting viewpoint and thanks for the book recs - I've taken a note.

I think the definition has to change because we understand more now - right?

Not that I don't think you're aware of it! But simply because you didn't mention it in your post - there's also the dimension of unconscious bias. The fact that no one is colour blind and we all make snap decisions on people before they've even spoken! I try to just be mindful of this. Keep myself in check so-to-speak.

@Burgoo

RE: The racism against white people part of the conversation

Black (and a small, vocal number of white) scholars have apparently changed the definition in recent years (probably the last 20 or so).

It has now encompassed a power element. It used to be:

"The belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another."

The new definition that Merriam-Webster have suggested includes:

"Racism is prejudice combined with social and institutional power".

So basically if you have prejudice it is just that. However if you have prejudice and you have social or institutional power then you are being racist. Which leads to the conclusion that you can't be racist against someone in power because they haven't got the potential to oppress you.

Do I agree? Its hard to say. I think it is helpful to notice a power dynamic and at the same time I think that if we just ignore that these things are a two way street it can be a tad messy. I mean, if your boss is black or Asian, would it be fair to say that you cannot be racist toward them? Even though they have the power in that dynamic? No of course not. That would be nonsensical.

I always find it a little dubious when it comes to social or political movements changing the definitions of words to fit a narrative.

Interestingly I must admit that I have read SO much on this issue since the BLM explosion a few years ago. Including:

White Supremacy and Me - Layla Saad
White Privilege - Robin DiAngelo
Back to Black - Kehinde Andrews
Biased - Jennifer Eberhardt
Why I No Longer Talk To White People about Race - Reni Eddo-Lodge
The Black Friend: On Being a Better White Person - Frederick Joseph
Natives - Akala

I found only Eberhardt's work to be nuanced and balanced and really respected her ability to combine evidence with her own personal narrative. Akala certainly has an impressive ability to explore the subject. Saad was perhaps the most sickeningly disgraceful piece of work I have read and DiAngelo loves cashing in on the suffering of black people. She then claims to be enlightened whilst using a circular (and rather gas-lighting) narrative that if you deny being racist then you have white fragility and this shows you are, in fact, racist.

Many of these works now add a power and oppression component and I am always curious as to why people feel the need to change definitions.

Intersectionalism innit. From those wonderful academics who brought you such gems as ' men can become women if they feel they are' etc. But ..is London a separate case? Separate country almost , some of my black mates thought so. I haven't lived there for a while but it seems genuinely multicultural or a plural society as we used to call it. I'm not sure how recent white immigration will affect that balance if at all. And whether language , rather than skin colour , will become the more important signifier of British identity?

I think there might be a problem talking about structural issues and not addressing other groups that experience disadvantage, eg travellers. Not because people want to dilute the issue of racism but in our society, I think we identify areas where change is needed and look at the most serious/extreme first. I don’t agree with that but we are constantly sent a message of ‘lack of resources’ and priorities. In comparison, we have a lot of media coverage around POC and their communities and the message that comes across is that 1) there are still problems 2) we have tried all these different things and they still don’t work.

The sub context here is that ‘we’ ( the authorities, the experts, etc) have done al the right things therefore the problem lies within the communities. I think that is the subtle message that people absorb and then internalise so their response when discussing these things is based on a flawed premise.

Regarding the Jewish and traveller communities, both of which are deemed white but actually may include people of colour, there isn’t so much media coverage. Except online and then you really see the extent of people’s hate.

I think what I trying to say is that I don’t think we can talk of structural issues within recognising other communities as they interact, form and shape those structural issues from positions of privilege and disadvantage. Sometimes, when people reject a perspective a person of colour is sharing, it is what seems like a failure to recognise the bigger picture that they are rejecting, not the underlying experience or feeling.

*Without not within

It goes without saying that this it is the media’s message that perpetuates these arguments with sensationalist headlines. It creates the dissension.

@headspin10

I think the U.K. is very racist and needs huge change.

Try reading 'White Fragility' Truly shocking.

Robin DiAngelo is herself a massive racist trying to convince others they think the same at as she does. And all the while charging multiple thousands of dollars to conduct seminars where she says the same in person to stupid white liberals. Not to mention the sales of her ridiculous books. That racist white woman sure is getting wealthy on the back of black people.

@Burgoo,

Your racism definition:
The new definition that Merriam-Webster have suggested includes:
"Racism is prejudice combined with social and institutional power"

Isn’t from Merriam-Webster at all.
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

The current definition of racism suggested by Merriam-Webster is

1. : a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2. a) the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another
   b) a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles

I’m not sure why people think you can’t have experienced racism if you’re white?

Because it doesn't fit the agenda designed by the judge, jury and executioners.

Just a few years ago I would have said that the UK on the whole is not overly racist apart from a few extremists.

How wrong could I have been (although I do think things have got markedly worse in recent years). I feel the country has gone backwards.

@JesusInTheCabbageVan

I saw a white boy 19-20yo old was on his bike with Deliveroo backpack. He pushed a 11-12yo black boy while riding past him in very fast speed from behind....I reached and asked "Is he OK and If he said anything bad to that boy, why he pushed him?"

You asked a 12yo whether he said anything bad to an adult who came from behind him, at speed and assaulted him? And then you blamed him for not standing up for himself. That poor boy.

Honestly, I think your post answers the Op's question, but not in the way you think it does.

@allBeingATwatItsABingThing you are imagining that I already knew the history behind it when I reached there. Think when you are walking on the road with music, suddenly one boy was being pushed. You don't know if they knew each other. When I saw it first I didn't expect actually that will be a racial issue at all. I thought it may be 2 boys some rivalry or may be taking revenge thing would be happening(like some one insulted someone then other day their big brother comes for revenge). I asked many things because I just wanted to know who started it all, like the situations in the park if children fight. When the boy told that he doesn't know him then I realised that it was a racist act. Knowing already that it was a racist act and then asking him "did you do something to him?" would have been victim blaming ..... but here I don't see it.

@Comefromaway

Just a few years ago I would have said that the UK on the whole is not overly racist apart from a few extremists.

How wrong could I have been (although I do think things have got markedly worse in recent years). I feel the country has gone backwards.

What's changed for you to feel like this

This wasn't children fighting in the park though, it was an adult assaulting a child. And even after you realised it was racist, you still asked him why he didn't stand up for himself, and how he expects anyone to help him if he won't stand up for himself.

The emergence of openly racist views and actions from people I thought were intelligent, open minded people. Turns out the racism was always there but now it's become more acceptable to express those views in public.

The Black Lives Matters movement really brought it to the fore.

If you'd witnessed a man punch a woman in the street and then run away, would you ask her if she had done something to deserve it?