To what extent would you say the UK is a racist country?

[VladmirsPoutine]

Bear with me on this. This thread is a culmination of some of the other threads I've been on and don't wish to derail. But thinking about for example ChildQ and the extent to which what happened to her was racially motivated, considering say the treatment of MM in the press which had a private school girl ostensibly painted as being 'straigh outta the hood'. I know that the UK is highlighted as one of the most racially tolerant places in the world, if not Europe. But just on the face of it I wonder, do you think the UK has a 'race problem'?

• 2.18 Over the same period, 25 children under the age of 18 were subject of ‘further searches’. 19 were male and 18 were handcuffed during the process. The reasons for search primarily related to suspicions about drugs (20), followed by weapons (4) and stolen property (1). 22 (88%) of the searches were negative with an outcome of no further action recorded in 20 (80%) of the cases. In terms of ethnicity, (as per the codes used by the police), 15 (60%) of the children searched were Black, 2 were White, 6 Asian and 2 Arab or North African.*

Nothing to see here either.

We also need to change the way in which we mark and assess university courses in the UK because we know that written assignments (2000-6000+ words) is not always representative of POC's abilities.

This is bullshit.

Is there racism in academia? Absolutely. Is it because "POC" can't write properly? Not even a little bit.

The worst abused in this society and in general are the disabled. We as a country do not facilitate them even half as much as we should including lack of public facilities, less job opportunities, lack of adequate public transport and how we view them in general. Yes racism is no doubt still an issue but it gets far more coverage and media attention than the disabled do.Sorry if it comes across as derailing the thread but I feel there are many more issues like this that get brushed under the carpet.

Prime example was a news report about a blind man who filmed his journey on the tube to work with his dog every morning. How him and his dog got treated were shameful.

Two examples of post racist society in this thread. Both of which are almost as bad as racism itself. Poster says that black cabinet minister is a bidder for the PM and that’s why she doesn’t get hate, implying that she’s not being a good little Black MP by playing identity politics enough. Another poster says implies that minority students don’t have the ability of to write long essays so the education system is institutionally racist. This is the kind of liberal racism that flows so easily, ironically from those who are trying to save the oppressed. This is the kind of racism we need to call out.

@sst1234

Two examples of post racist society in this thread. Both of which are almost as bad as racism itself. Poster says that black cabinet minister is a bidder for the PM and that’s why she doesn’t get hate, implying that she’s not being a good little Black MP by playing identity politics enough. Another poster says implies that minority students don’t have the ability of to write long essays so the education system is institutionally racist. This is the kind of liberal racism that flows so easily, ironically from those who are trying to save the oppressed. This is the kind of racism we need to call out.

You’ve twisted the first example - that’s not what I read into that post at all. Your second example, I agree.

@sst1234

Two examples of post racist society in this thread. Both of which are almost as bad as racism itself. Poster says that black cabinet minister is a bidder for the PM and that’s why she doesn’t get hate, implying that she’s not being a good little Black MP by playing identity politics enough. Another poster says implies that minority students don’t have the ability of to write long essays so the education system is institutionally racist. This is the kind of liberal racism that flows so easily, ironically from those who are trying to save the oppressed. This is the kind of racism we need to call out.

You are absolutely hell bent on twisting my comment to fit your own agenda. If you managed to extract that out of my comment, thats about your projection, not my words.

I saw a white boy 19-20yo old was on his bike with Deliveroo backpack. He pushed a 11-12yo black boy while riding past him in very fast speed from behind. The younger boy was returning from the school, had his school bag, his lunchbox and water bottle all threw on footpath and bottle rolled down a bit far. Then the white boy looked back on him and gave a wicked smile. It was on a busy road but no one was near him (some white boys,girls with same age, same school were further to him) on footpath.

I was very much far behind but could see it clearly. I got shocked and dishearten by this and almost ran to him when he was also in shock looking his bruised elbow, picking his lunch box and bottle. I reached and asked "Is he OK and If he said anything bad to that boy, why he pushed him?"
The boy said he didn't say or do anything and he doesn't recognise this white boy, never seen him before. Then I asked him " then why didn't you say/ask anything to him?" I told him if he wont voice for himself how others will come to help.
The young lad was very shy and was looking very embarrassed (may be because he fell down as my ds does sometimes).
He trotted away. I told him to tell to his parents about the incident as he went off.
I know it is one lone incident. But it was totally racist.
(I was puzzled what I could do about it and got terrified if that would have happened with my ds in anyways)

We also need to change the way in which we mark and assess university courses in the UK because we know that written assignments (2000-6000+ words) is not always representative of POC's abilities

It reminds of a news story I read where high school students in Oregon can graduate without the standard proficiency in maths, reading and writing. This is meant to help the minority groups.
Wouldn’t it be better to help those groups to get to the standard required rather than leaving them below standard?
It’s a racist attitude that POC can’t achieve the same standards.

This article raised a lot of questions for me about racism in academia

www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-60708712

“In the 15 years Robert Mokaya has been a professor at Nottingham university, he has had all his applications for funding for research projects turned down by Britain's main chemistry funding body, now called the UK Research and Innovation agency.“

My (non white, non British) DH thinks the UK is very weird. He says he feels safe there - and that fights and aggression seem to be caused exclusively by alcohol which he doesn't drink and isn't often around. He doesn't think British people are racist but he thinks they're 'racially awkward' and that there is a lot of tension. He feels that white British people feel so guilty for being white that they make issues where there needn't be an issue and accidentally make him and his non-white friends feel uncomfortable and often a bit patronized. He feels that British people aren't comfortable around each other.

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

We also need to change the way in which we mark and assess university courses in the UK because we know that written assignments (2000-6000+ words) is not always representative of POC's abilities.

This is bullshit.

Is there racism in academia? Absolutely. Is it because "POC" can't write properly? Not even a little bit.

There are attainment gaps in the US in terms of academic performance, if you look at black students as a whole. For example there is a significant gap in SAT scores. So you either see universities accepting fewer of those students, or they accept them even with poorer marks. IN the latter case, they (unsurprisingly) don't do as well in their studies.

There are basically two responses to his among activists/concerned people.The approach that the dominant antiricism campaigners take at the moment is to say that these gaps are due to racism - in fact any disparity between race groups is racism - and that just as we need to change acceptance policies to make sure there are no disparities in numbers of students admitted, we need to change education and testing to make sure black students do as well in their subjects. So you get proposals to change writing requirements, or to remove mathematics from the curriculum.

The other approach is to ask, why is there this performance gap, and also to drill down into the numbers a little more to see where it really resides - is it all black students, or only certain ones, and if so, whao is actually affected? Then look at what measures might actually address that gap. At the moment however this approach is often seen as a racist POV - even if it's black parents, teachers, etc that are saying it.

@Foghead

We also need to change the way in which we mark and assess university courses in the UK because we know that written assignments (2000-6000+ words) is not always representative of POC's abilities

It reminds of a news story I read where high school students in Oregon can graduate without the standard proficiency in maths, reading and writing. This is meant to help the minority groups.
Wouldn’t it be better to help those groups to get to the standard required rather than leaving them below standard?
It’s a racist attitude that POC can’t achieve the same standards.

Yes, and you can be pretty sure that those sending their kids to be educated privately - no matter what ethnicity they are - will not be allowing them to graduate without learning math and writing.

All this kind of approach will do is disadvantage those without the same financial resources even more. It doesn't matter how easy you make qualifying, if you can't do math you are not building bridges or becoming a banker or a surgeon.

Wow. This is the sort of misguided insulting white-person guilt that my DH hates about the UK. Saying we need to literally change the way we mark and assess academic courses because non-white people can't keep up 🤮

It's similar to a suggestion he heard the other day (made by a British person) that we should encourage people to stop getting married and living in nuclear families because it makes (non-white) people feel bad because the often don't have a dad. He hated this too and found it so bloody insulting.

@Dogmum40
Well said, I’m not disabled but I did get attacked for being white and no one no matter what skin colour or abilities should be abused or attacked, the posters saying whites can’t experience racism is truly shocking and has actually really upset me

Whilst I agree, anyone can be attacked verbally or physically for any attribute and yes, I've been attacked by a group of black youths (whilst I was also a youth) and had things shouted at me like 'filthy white bitch', bottles of pop thrown at my head...

That isn't the same as racism... because that isn't something that happens to you or I on a daily basis, it isn't something we, and our family, and our friends are living with in some form or another, every single day.

As white people, we are the majority in most places, even if we are temporarily a minority when walking alone down one particular street that happens to have a gang of horrible teenagers hurling abuse and bottles of pop... So those one off attacks, they're abusive, they're wrong but they are not 'racism'. We as white people, do not have a centuries old history of being abused by another group of humans!

I’m not sure why people think you can’t have experienced racism if you’re white?

I went travelling.. alone.. when I was younger, stayed in homestays, B and B type places and immersed myself in the normal day to day of wherever I was. I was at a beach bar one night and this group of men started making me feel very uncomfortable with their body language, someone I’d befriended spoke to them and explained they thought I was a slut, without a father and obviously couldn’t find a man because I was travelling alone.

How can you honestly make all those assumptions based on the fact I’m white?! It’s insane.

I think the UK is a country in denial about lots of issues, such as racism, sexism and poverty/classism.

Yes, I think there is a racism problem in the UK.

I think the UK is in a very bad place politically and is long overdue a big step forward.

It is very racist. Just read the Harry/Meghan threads and the denial of racism that caused Meghan and Harry to flee the UK in them is the perfect indicator of how ingrained racism is in the UK and in posters on this site. Denial that racism occurred/occurs is a main indicator of racism.

We also need to change the way in which we mark and assess university courses in the UK because we know that written assignments (2000-6000+ words) is not always representative of POC's abilities.

What??

Please explain.

The boy said he didn't say or do anything and he doesn't recognise this white boy, never seen him before. Then I asked him " then why didn't you say/ask anything to him?" I told him if he wont voice for himself how others will come to help.

If I'm reading this right, you basically bollocked an 11 year old boy for not standing up to racism?

Sorry, but it isn't up to you, or me, to police how children respond to being racially assaulted .

@Saku

I saw a white boy 19-20yo old was on his bike with Deliveroo backpack. He pushed a 11-12yo black boy while riding past him in very fast speed from behind. The younger boy was returning from the school, had his school bag, his lunchbox and water bottle all threw on footpath and bottle rolled down a bit far. Then the white boy looked back on him and gave a wicked smile. It was on a busy road but no one was near him (some white boys,girls with same age, same school were further to him) on footpath.

I was very much far behind but could see it clearly. I got shocked and dishearten by this and almost ran to him when he was also in shock looking his bruised elbow, picking his lunch box and bottle. I reached and asked "Is he OK and If he said anything bad to that boy, why he pushed him?"
The boy said he didn't say or do anything and he doesn't recognise this white boy, never seen him before. Then I asked him " then why didn't you say/ask anything to him?" I told him if he wont voice for himself how others will come to help.
The young lad was very shy and was looking very embarrassed (may be because he fell down as my ds does sometimes).
He trotted away. I told him to tell to his parents about the incident as he went off.
I know it is one lone incident. But it was totally racist.
(I was puzzled what I could do about it and got terrified if that would have happened with my ds in anyways)

I don't think that incident makes you look as good as good as you think it does.

@Saku

I saw a white boy 19-20yo old was on his bike with Deliveroo backpack. He pushed a 11-12yo black boy while riding past him in very fast speed from behind. The younger boy was returning from the school, had his school bag, his lunchbox and water bottle all threw on footpath and bottle rolled down a bit far. Then the white boy looked back on him and gave a wicked smile. It was on a busy road but no one was near him (some white boys,girls with same age, same school were further to him) on footpath.

I was very much far behind but could see it clearly. I got shocked and dishearten by this and almost ran to him when he was also in shock looking his bruised elbow, picking his lunch box and bottle. I reached and asked "Is he OK and If he said anything bad to that boy, why he pushed him?"
The boy said he didn't say or do anything and he doesn't recognise this white boy, never seen him before. Then I asked him " then why didn't you say/ask anything to him?" I told him if he wont voice for himself how others will come to help.
The young lad was very shy and was looking very embarrassed (may be because he fell down as my ds does sometimes).
He trotted away. I told him to tell to his parents about the incident as he went off.
I know it is one lone incident. But it was totally racist.
(I was puzzled what I could do about it and got terrified if that would have happened with my ds in anyways)

@Saku So you basically victim-blamed. You admonished the victim, a little boy, for not speaking up to a 19-20 year old man.

Are you for real? That's disgraceful, you should be ashamed on yourself! Would you also admonish a rape victim for freezing and not saying 'no'? Why did you go out of your way to make that poor little boy feel worse than he already did!? How dare you! Do you honestly think that shaming that little boy and putting the onus on him helped him? I can promise you, as someone who was bullied relentlessly as a child, you only made that poor boy worse! Next time, go after the attacker and ask them why they did it, instead of making the victim responsible for confronting the attacker and making them feel worse! Shame on you!

Not to mention that the first thing she asked after "are you ok?" was basically what have you done to cause this?

Looks like the racists are really showing their selves in the thread now.