To what extent would you say the UK is a racist country?

[VladmirsPoutine]

Bear with me on this. This thread is a culmination of some of the other threads I've been on and don't wish to derail. But thinking about for example ChildQ and the extent to which what happened to her was racially motivated, considering say the treatment of MM in the press which had a private school girl ostensibly painted as being 'straigh outta the hood'. I know that the UK is highlighted as one of the most racially tolerant places in the world, if not Europe. But just on the face of it I wonder, do you think the UK has a 'race problem'?

@moanriver

I think the UK is judged extremely harshly as being obscenely racist - when those people are living in a bubble of having not actually experienced the very consequential and severe obscene racism in most countries in the world. Yet the UK particularly likes to naval-gaze about it. Really, I think people in day to day life are mostly getting on with it and rubbing along. Only media and some strata of society are so obsessed with labelling and colouring everyone. Of course not denying that some shocking examples exist, but why the UK is made out as some fascist racist breeding ground is just simply not true.

Are you white?

www.itv.com/news/2021-10-06/true-scale-of-covid-hate-crime-against-asians-in-uk-revealed-as-victims-speak-up

www.itv.com/news/london/2021-10-07/hate-crimes-against-east-and-south-east-asians-in-london-rose-80-during-covid

www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/british-asian-identity/amp

It’s racist as fuck. If you haven’t experienced racism then don’t talk about it you have no idea about the lived experiences of minorities.

Yeah it’s racist.
Not ‘as racist’ as other countries, but it is.
There’s NO a place in the world with no racism. None.

[quote WiddlinDiddling]@Dogmum40
Well said, I’m not disabled but I did get attacked for being white and no one no matter what skin colour or abilities should be abused or attacked, the posters saying whites can’t experience racism is truly shocking and has actually really upset me

Whilst I agree, anyone can be attacked verbally or physically for any attribute and yes, I've been attacked by a group of black youths (whilst I was also a youth) and had things shouted at me like 'filthy white bitch', bottles of pop thrown at my head...

That isn't the same as racism... because that isn't something that happens to you or I on a daily basis, it isn't something we, and our family, and our friends are living with in some form or another, every single day.

As white people, we are the majority in most places, even if we are temporarily a minority when walking alone down one particular street that happens to have a gang of horrible teenagers hurling abuse and bottles of pop... So those one off attacks, they're abusive, they're wrong but they are not 'racism'. We as white people, do not have a centuries old history of being abused by another group of humans![/quote]
This is a genuine question and from a racial point of view, what was it called that happened to me in if it wasn’t a racially motivated unprovoked attack? So I’m white ( the victim) and the perpetrators were black using racials slurs against me in the attack, I really would love an answer as I can’t understand what happened to me and it still affects me today, also would it have been classed as a racially motived attack if the victim was black and the perpetrators were white?

@Pandypuff

Wow. This is the sort of misguided insulting white-person guilt that my DH hates about the UK. Saying we need to literally change the way we mark and assess academic courses because non-white people can't keep up 🤮

That was a very odd comment!

I think the white people that say the uk isnt that racist say this because they are not racist,or there friends and colleagues arnt racist.

I would say the country is more xenophobic than racist, but how much of is based on the BS the papers feed us about people coming here to claim benifits. If your poor and just scrapping by and going to food banks,you might feel a certain way when you read about immigrants getting all this help your not.

Yes, racist as fuck.

And by the way saying it is 'very tolerant' is telling. Non-white people shouldn't have to feel they are being 'tolerated'. Maybe start by removing that phrase from the discussion

That’s a good point actually.

I used the phrase I think previously and hadn’t thought of it this way - re tolerant.

I don’t expect white people to see all the nuances of racism but I do expect to be believed.

@Saku

I saw a white boy 19-20yo old was on his bike with Deliveroo backpack. He pushed a 11-12yo black boy while riding past him in very fast speed from behind. The younger boy was returning from the school, had his school bag, his lunchbox and water bottle all threw on footpath and bottle rolled down a bit far. Then the white boy looked back on him and gave a wicked smile. It was on a busy road but no one was near him (some white boys,girls with same age, same school were further to him) on footpath.

I was very much far behind but could see it clearly. I got shocked and dishearten by this and almost ran to him when he was also in shock looking his bruised elbow, picking his lunch box and bottle. I reached and asked "Is he OK and If he said anything bad to that boy, why he pushed him?"
The boy said he didn't say or do anything and he doesn't recognise this white boy, never seen him before. Then I asked him " then why didn't you say/ask anything to him?" I told him if he wont voice for himself how others will come to help.
The young lad was very shy and was looking very embarrassed (may be because he fell down as my ds does sometimes).
He trotted away. I told him to tell to his parents about the incident as he went off.
I know it is one lone incident. But it was totally racist.
(I was puzzled what I could do about it and got terrified if that would have happened with my ds in anyways)

Wtf did I just read? Why did you ask the younger boy if he provoked the older one? He was obviously the victim and you tried to find an excuse for he adult's behaviour. You're a woman - you must have seen an entitled man use his bigger physique to intimidate and get away with things ?

As a woman, have you ever been unable to say something because the other person is a man and you don't want them to physically assault you in retaliation ? That's probably what the younger boy was thinking. How was he going to defend himself when the adult man turned round and beat him up for giving him a piece of his mind? It would have been stupid to get into a fight with someone much bigger who grinned because he knew that only a man who was bigger and stronger would be a problem.

@WhoKnewWho

The boy said he didn't say or do anything and he doesn't recognise this white boy, never seen him before. Then I asked him " then why didn't you say/ask anything to him?" I told him if he wont voice for himself how others will come to help.

If I'm reading this right, you basically bollocked an 11 year old boy for not standing up to racism?

Sorry, but it isn't up to you, or me, to police how children respond to being racially assaulted .

@allPinaColada123456 @allldontWanna ........ I don't get it.. how I want to become good in this terrible incident. I just mentioned one incident in context which happened in front of my eyes, and described truly as it happened. I would have tried to stop the attacker if I would be in the front side. But as I said he was on bike, riding very fast, there was no way I could have caught him.

And "Are you OK/alright?" does not mean anything other than "Are you hurt?"
I know he was being shy/in shock, that's why he couldn't speak... ....... but don't you teach the children to shout "NOOO" loudly for an inappropriate touch. I was doing the same.
When I said why didn't you say/ask anything ........ literally meant that confront him (by screaming or shouting for help to catch him).......
telling to confront/respond is not called, to police or victim-blaming I think.

@sst1234

I think UK has a bigger problem with a middle class ‘white saviour syndrome’ than it does with racism. Try being a non- white person and telling a progressive white person that everything isn’t down to race. Watch the indignation. You may even be accused or being racist yourself, against your own race.

One of the most sensible posts I've ever read on MN! SItuations are dealt with differently if a non-white person is involved, when my car was vandalised in school the Head was all guns blazing, until we found the culprits and suddenly I was 'over-reacting' and the school had to be 'sensitive'. The mother of the non-white person later found out and went crazy at the Head for letting him get away with it.

Every country had a race problem. The UK has legislated away much of it, so you end up with these grey areas. Like the ChildQ case where it feels as if this wouldn't have happened to a white child (or even certain non-black ethnic minorities) but it's impossible to conclusively prove that race was a factor.
I don't think UK is the best or worst country on race in Europe.

@Dogmum40
White people can experience racism on an individual level. Like what happened to you. Or say business owners of a certain ethnicity only hiring 'their people'.
But they don't experience racism on an institutional level the way minorities do.

Having said that IMO racism in the UK is very complex because there are so many lines of division. Take the 'old white men' succeeding for example - how many are from 'WC' backgrounds or have thick accents?

A lot of 'anti-racism' stuff is showboating IMO and conflates race with social class. For example, the majority of people in 'racial diversity' programmes in the City are well-heeled immigrants. You don't see many from crap schools in the UK.

For me it's simple. Combating prejudice ; based on ANY characteristic is the key. It's no use targeting specific things, like racism against X/Y/Z, or class. Focus on seeing people as human and all of the rest will solve itself. Of course targeted interventions r.e. deprived areas are fine, I'm talking about quotas and the like.

Also to add - I'm a somewhat 'well-heeled immigrant' (was a scholarship student at one of UK's most prestigious unis). I'm well aware someone in a rural, deprived area (no matter their skin colour) is probably more worse off than I am. It's not so obvious

@ToiletPoster

Every country had a race problem. The UK has legislated away much of it, so you end up with these grey areas. Like the ChildQ case where it feels as if this wouldn't have happened to a white child (or even certain non-black ethnic minorities) but it's impossible to conclusively prove that race was a factor. I don't think UK is the best or worst country on race in Europe.

The report - which was authored by an ex-chief police officer - clearly stated racism was a factor.

Next time read the actual report before making ignorant comments.

@Itsnotover

This is something that white people by definition cannot have a legitimate opinion on.

You should find out from POC and amplify their voices.

Rubbish, and that's the polite version. I as a white woman have received racial abuse in the UK from non'white people.

[quote WiddlinDiddling]@Dogmum40
Well said, I’m not disabled but I did get attacked for being white and no one no matter what skin colour or abilities should be abused or attacked, the posters saying whites can’t experience racism is truly shocking and has actually really upset me

Whilst I agree, anyone can be attacked verbally or physically for any attribute and yes, I've been attacked by a group of black youths (whilst I was also a youth) and had things shouted at me like 'filthy white bitch', bottles of pop thrown at my head...

That isn't the same as racism... because that isn't something that happens to you or I on a daily basis, it isn't something we, and our family, and our friends are living with in some form or another, every single day.

As white people, we are the majority in most places, even if we are temporarily a minority when walking alone down one particular street that happens to have a gang of horrible teenagers hurling abuse and bottles of pop... So those one off attacks, they're abusive, they're wrong but they are not 'racism'. We as white people, do not have a centuries old history of being abused by another group of humans![/quote]
I'm white. I'm also Jewish and I have been subjected to racism frequently. I have to walk past police on the way into the synagogue. Our children have security guards at school. When we got married we had to decide if we wanted to use the synagogue's security or hire our own.

My sister was attacked just because she walked out of a kosher butcher.

My great grandparents fled Poland and Russia due to the attacks and pogroms.

I'd say Jews, who are mainly white do have a centuries old history of being abused by another group of humans.

@WiddlinDiddling

We as white people, do not have a centuries old history of being abused by another group of humans!

Ever heard of Ancient Rome or Ottoman Empire? I'm not even going to mention human trafficking in 21st century, white people are very much abused by other groups of people, pretending like it doesn't happen (or never happened in history) is ignorant.

I think Brexit was largely a racist vote.

I saw a white boy 19-20yo old was on his bike with Deliveroo backpack. He pushed a 11-12yo black boy while riding past him in very fast speed from behind....I reached and asked "Is he OK and If he said anything bad to that boy, why he pushed him?"

You asked a 12yo whether he said anything bad to an adult who came from behind him, at speed and assaulted him? And then you blamed him for not standing up for himself. That poor boy.

Honestly, I think your post answers the Op's question, but not in the way you think it does.

[quote Moonflower12]@Itsnotover

I came on to say precisely that.

I can't comment because I'm white.

[/quote]
Being white doesn't stop others who are not white being racist towards you. And it happens a lot more than you'd realised! Blatantly.

Having lived in several other European countries, I can say that the UK is way ahead of most on this. Plenty of racism still though, no doubt, , but the significant efforts to address it are often seemingly totally overlooked in many debates. My view is supported by other mixed or minority families we know with similar experiences in other places. We do love to constantly kick the UK... Which is not to say that there's no reason ever for sure, but some balance is often missing and that's not helpful.

@Saku

I saw a white boy 19-20yo old was on his bike with Deliveroo backpack. He pushed a 11-12yo black boy while riding past him in very fast speed from behind. The younger boy was returning from the school, had his school bag, his lunchbox and water bottle all threw on footpath and bottle rolled down a bit far. Then the white boy looked back on him and gave a wicked smile. It was on a busy road but no one was near him (some white boys,girls with same age, same school were further to him) on footpath.

I was very much far behind but could see it clearly. I got shocked and dishearten by this and almost ran to him when he was also in shock looking his bruised elbow, picking his lunch box and bottle. I reached and asked "Is he OK and If he said anything bad to that boy, why he pushed him?"
The boy said he didn't say or do anything and he doesn't recognise this white boy, never seen him before. Then I asked him " then why didn't you say/ask anything to him?" I told him if he wont voice for himself how others will come to help.
The young lad was very shy and was looking very embarrassed (may be because he fell down as my ds does sometimes).
He trotted away. I told him to tell to his parents about the incident as he went off.
I know it is one lone incident. But it was totally racist.
(I was puzzled what I could do about it and got terrified if that would have happened with my ds in anyways)

Spectacular example of victim blaming here.

@RockingMyFiftiesNot

I think Brexit was largely a racist vote.

Not sure you've come to conclusion, but I'd disagree.

I nearly voted for it, that doesnt make me racist

telling to confront/respond is not called, to police or victim-blaming I think.

Asking a victim:

Did you do something to deserve this?
Why did your attacker target you?
Why didn't you stand up for yourself?
If you won't stand up for yourself, how do you expect anyone to help you?

is fucking awful victim blaming. I know you don't get it, but you handled this really badly - worse than if you'd done nothing.