If you have mental health problems that stop you from doing things do you get sick of people saying they can’t do things because of their mental health.

[Toothiehurtie]

No trolling genuinely wondering. There are kids in my kids classes at school who are starting to get attention for mental health issues and there are more kids than not now with a reason why they need to be treated differently tk the majority to the point where the kids doing what they are supposed to be doing are in the minority. If you’re the one who normally gets an allowance for your mental health does it piss you off when it’s allowed for everyone or do you feel like it’s great that mental health is being acknowledged. The example I’m thinking of is a kid at school who was allowed not to wear school shoes and now most of the class wear trainers and the whatsapp grouo mums are saying their kids are much happier if they get to wear what they want, and now school are clamping back. Not trolling not fishing just interested if you or your kid gets treated differently to everyone else and allowances are made fo you then does it ruin it for you if lots of people get it too

Thanks so everyone for their thoughts so far. Someone earlier said everyone can’t have a personalised education and someone else said if it’s benefitting half the class then surely it would be beneficial for all of them. My

[quote PeekabooAtTheZoo]@Squeakywheels it's depressing that there are so many "armchair experts" both on this thread and working at schools. So many children being judged for needing help.[/quote]
It’s not the children being judged.

I'm the opposite tbh. Maybe it's just the mood swings talking but I get annoyed when people claim they can't do things because they're too depressed.

I'm depressed to the point that I've made 2 attempts at suicide ( one was interrupted and the other didn't work because I'm clearly fatter than I thought I was.) But I still get up and do shit because if I don't, no one else will. No one will pay my rent if I don't go to work, no one will look after my pets if I don't. No one will clean my house and do the washing and feed us if I don't.

It's people posting online about how they're so depressed they can't get out of bed that piss me off. Yes, the fuck you can. I take it you aren't pissing your bed every few hours? No? Then clearly can get up, can't you.

I feel like it's them who take the piss and cause depression to be seen as something people roll their eyes at or doctors dismiss. Maybe that's the illness talking but I have much much less patience with people like this. Less patience in general really but especially this.

The problem is the lack of investment in basic services like education and health care. Any child, should have adequate support to reach their potential. If it is all of them or most of them then the education system needs to be revised. However, these investments will not be made unless our public voices are heard through our voting preferences. There is no money tree, granted, but I would much rather pay for two or three children have a 1-1 classroom assistant than for a paint job in a well paid politician's bathroom!

For parents complaining that an academically able child has support, you undoubtedly don't understand the real life difficulties they face.

My son is academically 'gifted' and is the cleverest in his year. He has asd and a classroom assistant. He is completely unaware of danger, he is nearly 12 and he needs his hand held to cross the road. He could have his trousers round his ankles and not notice. He needs organisational support and suffers from anxiety and emotional liability.
He is an obvious target for bullies and therefore I'm grateful for the support he needs! I know some parents would be that because he is an a* student their less academically able child should have the resources that keep him safe.

@Toothiehurtie

About the ruining I guess I mean if child a struggles in a large size class and is taken out to a much smaller class for an hour a week to work on self esteem and then eventually 18 of the thirt kids in a class are being taken out of the standard lesson to go to the smaller glass it isn’t smaller any more and it’s meant that the people who really needed it in the first place haven’t got it anymore

This is not happening in any mainstream school in the UK.

Not sure how I can explain my point properly, but I'll try. I've spent most of my life with poor MH. Have never had any sort of accommodation for my MH. I've always had to either lose out or put coping mechanisms in place to make things workable for myself.

Whilst I believe that it is great and much needed support for MH conditions, I do find myself quite concerned about the fact that it seems an accepted fact that so many have MH issues, and no one seems to be working on long term solutions.

There is a child in DDs year group, who has for the past 5/6 years burst into tears at every opportunity. She cries at the drop of a hat, she is scared of stairs, scared of lifts, scared of escalators, scared of everything. Obviously since the pandemic things have worsened, she now spends most of her lessons in the library because people are too much. She hasn't received help, no counselling, no ones challenging how to make things better, and I worry about what her life will look like when she is an adult. There are plenty of others who are refusing school because of MH who DD knows.

I think my concern is more that the support thats given is probably more damaging than no support.

Given the beast of anxiety, avoidance feels like the safest option, so you avoid x, you avoid y, you avoid z, then you avoid something else because that feeling doesn't go away, it just moves to another area of life, before you know it there are so many dangerous things you cannot face, and on a level, you carry that and feel a bit like these are failures on your part.... or atleast in my case.

Support is good, but I just think that in some cases it needs to be a two pronged approach.

@mummypigoink

There is no diagnosed illness that puts inappropriate language and knowledge into a child’s head - that’s all on the family. And I’m not talking about the odd bit of frustration meaning a kid learns how to say fuck. If a primary age child is calling someone a fucking fat cunt their primary problem is their home environment.

And it’s making excuses for and having to deal with issues caused by terrible parenting that is derailing the help for the children who need it and fuelling the frustration that many other parents feel.

Totally agree

@cocktailclub I'm sorry your DC has to put with violence in the classroom that is not acceptable, however not all DC with SN are violent likewise a lot of violent DC don't have SN.
There is a massive difference when a DC has a parent working hard towards helping them and a parent who creates a chaotic home life.
You seem to be tarring any DC with SN as violent inconveniences in mainstream schools.

@EmeraldShamrock1
Thank you.
Good point and I don't intend to come across that way. I really do believe children with special needs deserve the support and should be given the necessary help to do their best throughout education.
I am fed up with a group that I believe hide behind additional needs and excuse poor behaviour and don't separate out unacceptable behaviour from learning needs and parents who just don't care about other children. And parents who don't give their children any bedtime, let them eat rubbish and let them use screens all day and don't see the link with their behaviour at all, instead hiding behind additional needs.

Disabilities and especially when needs are not met in school can be the reason for some behaviours. A family members child was restrained regularly at their mainstream school because they were not properly supported but the school did not apply for an ehcp because the LA told them it would be refused At the ASC placement they attend now, those behaviours don't happen and the child is progressing well academically mainly because the staff understand their needs. The cost of the education is about 10 times what it was which was why the LA were blocking the ehcp. The child has never behaved that way at home so nothing to do with poor parenting.

I think a lot more children do have additional needs in one way or another than your post suggests. If the teachers are trying to accommodate them all, I think it is good that they are at least trying. My DD has been taken out of class to work on her self esteem since she was little in state primary and now state secondary. She also has special support due to her anxiety. She doesn’t have a statement although we are trying to get her assessed again. Not sure she would cope with school without this intervention and luckily the schools have recognised this.

I agree, yes it absolutely takes away from the children with real need, including those waiting for a diagnosis. I can see and hear the exhaustion in teachers who are dealing with all of these fragile children in both primary and secondary mainstream. The demands from parents, many who don’t actually parent, is putting extreme pressure on the schools and CAMHS, and the waiting lists are huge.

They don’t need a diagnosis to have to make all of these adjustments, they don’t need a diagnosis to have to write an EHCP or give the child one to one, special treatment or consideration. The time spent on this paperwork and in early help meetings because a child doesn’t want to get out of bed, has anxiety or vague or alleged traits of ADHD, ASD, PTSD is mind numbing.

Children are growing up with no resilience I can’t imagine what will happen when they are the parents. So many children have no boundaries and bad behaviour is constantly excused.

It can also generate a lot of extra income for the parents through DLA, Carers and UC.

I also agree that some adults use MH as a flippant or casual excuse when they have no idea how crippling anxiety, depression or OCD can actually be. It does nothing to help reduce the stigma (or waiting lists) on those who are struggling and waiting for treatment.

"It can also generate a lot of extra income for the parents through DLA, Carers and UC."

Have you applied for Dla recently? Do you know how difficult it is to get even for a child who is profoundly disabled? I have spent weeks doing renewals, sorting all the evidence and explaining the level of care Ehcp, support plans, medical letters etc.

I am all for adaptations due to mental health but if the mental health issues affect the wellbeing or safety of people around them, they need to stay home until they can safely be around other people again, without hurting them, physically or verbally.

On that basis some children will never go to school because their disability will always require extra support and accommodations. We should fund and provide support for people who need it, not lock them away.

@MervynGothic - you are wrong. It does happen. I worked in a school where this very issue occurred. The SN dept was keen on empire building and demanded that kids who were basically trying it on were given accommodations. Thus those who were really in need had multiple kids moved to the SN block and at one point in a class there were two kids left out of 18.

I would add that this was during a period with no head and some dept heads missing so things may have been tightened up now.

@Squeakywheels yes and this is part of my point. DLA is for disabled children and it is a prolonged and frustrating process. It is money that is needed to support the additional needs. It’s unbelievable that some parents have to go to appeal to get their entitlements.

So it’s particularly galling when a child with aggressive and defiant behaviour, no diagnosis and on a 2 or 3 year waiting list for assessment because their parents say they have unmet needs are awarded DLA at the same rate, or higher than a non verbal child with ASD with such a high level of need they attend SEN school.

You may not believe it but I see it every week in my work. The have evidence in the EHCP, a school risk assessment, letter from a support worker and the continual excuse of being on the waiting list due to the pandemic.

I genuinely believe these families are taking services more needed by other families.

You would expect a child with an ehcp and risk assessment to get some level of dla. Dla is about support needed, not about diagnosis.

@Penyu

A few things here are spot on

1. Yes the policies and procedures in a lot of schools need adjusting and honestly in my school there are no negative consequences at all, just conversations
2. Which hardly ever happen because staff absence from covid has decimated the slt times they could normally have tried to address some of the issues as they are also in class and can't - after school is too late
3. When I talk about accommodations/diagnosis this is a big range from very easily adaptable dyslexia to extreme ASD/enhanced provision, so it's not all crazy all the time but those are some real examples my class has to deal with
4. Yes sometimes i am guilty of placing a good girl next to the most extreme child because no-one else can deal with the behaviour (see point 2) it sucks.
5. The example of alternative provision for gcse is scary and I totally believe it - how can schools actually staff this?

6 I don't think parents realise/have any idea how many children have additional needs and accommodations in class due to gdpr and also no parents actually in school the last two years to see some of the stuff actually going on!

And yes, money is at the heart of this... More staff, more qualified staff.... And special breakout rooms and better play equipment and spaces and better cooked lunches, etc etc etc which I can't see happening anytime soon.

Another former good girl who had this experience - please, please stop doing it. The fact that nobody else can deal with the behaviour so young children are being asked to do it is abhorrent. I remember teachers putting me with the aggressive, unruly boys because I could "talk some sense into them" and "set a good example". What ended up happening is I'd do their work for them after they called me an ugly, fat swot.

I went to school two decades ago and it was already showing signs of becoming like this. I can't imagine what it's like now. I've suffered with MH issues my entire life, including a teenage suicide attempt that was ignored by the authorities. I'm not suggesting we go back to that, it was awful to have that ignored, but now we've gone too far the opposite way. The kids being described in this thread are not going to manage in the real world, where accommodations are reasonable, not unconditional.

@Squeakywheels

You would expect a child with an ehcp and risk assessment to get some level of dla. Dla is about support needed, not about diagnosis.

Exactly however, diagnosis or not, the regulations say the needs have to arise from a disability. Not every child with an ehcp has a disability. I am talking about mainstream school not SEN school.

You seem to have focused on my comment about DLA so I will explain why I wrote that.

If a child has a diagnosis and additional needs the school are under a duty to address this and put strategies in place. And the resulting paperwork can help with a DLA claim.

Earlier you said that parents can't diagnose ASD, ADHD etc in a child and if they are treated as such the the problem lies with the school. It is not that clear cut.

You may be surprised at how many parents are suggesting that their aggressive and defiant child's behaviour is due to additional needs, possible ASD, PTSD, ADHD. And the school are under a duty to address this and put strategies in place while waiting for assessment. And the resulting paperwork can help with a DLA claim.

In my experience very often the second group are taking services needed by the first group meaning those in need wait longer. It dilutes the service and also the struggles that the first group face. Often the second group are advised to go to parenting classes as part of the assessment, many can't be bothered. No doubt their child has difficulty regulating their emotions but how much is learned behaviour or environmental rather than a disability?

And yet a child in the first group could well receive less DLA than a child in the second group. Call me cynical but for the second group there can be financial reward in not addressing the real issues.

If a child has been granted an Ehcp and dla then I think I will take the experts view on their level of need rather than some judgemental person online.

Both take a massive fight and a lot of evidence to get. More likely people won’t be getting what they need rather than getting more than they need

@MabelsApron totally agree with you. My DGD teacher has just asked my DIL if her child would like to attend group sessions, in school to improve her self esteem, she is 10. Why does she need this group because she has been repeatedly sat next to one naughty child or another in class despite my DS & DIL repeatedly challenging the school on this. So the school now have now introduced group sessions to help the children who have to sit in class with the disruptive pupils.

Not only madness but what is it teaching our children about gender roles, sitting the good girl next to the naughty boy so that she can be a calming influence because he can't help himself, in primary school ffs.

@Sirzy

If a child has been granted an Ehcp and dla then I think I will take the experts view on their level of need rather than some judgemental person online.

Both take a massive fight and a lot of evidence to get. More likely people won’t be getting what they need rather than getting more than they need

If that is directed at me. I am an expert, not judging just stating facts.

DS has a collection of high functioning neurodiversities. He masks through a school day, then explodes at home. School making some reasonable adjustments for him does help reduce that brewing tension. The reality is not many adjustments are made and provided. We've funded the tinted glasses, the laptops etc. School makes little effort into reminding and facilitating him to use them.
Because he presents quietly in class, he is often placed with the chatty girls because he doesn't engage with them. Unfortunately not engaging also refers to him being able to discuss the work with them because they're not on the same academic/ social wavelength and his social skill isn't sophisticated enough to deal with that. I have intervened when certain unworkable combinations have repeated over the years. I've been a teacher. There's a set number of desks and a set combination of personalities to spread around them. He logistically very rarely gets chance to work with the other calm, brightest kids that he works best with because of the way you have to manage the whole class. I only intervene when a particular combination has history of going wrong.

Getting diagnoses is not for the lazy. It's not quick. It's not easy. It doesn't guarentee much when you have them. There's a lot of gate-keepers. You have to demonstrate the long term nature of the issue. We had a paper trail going back to infancy. People don't look at DS and see his difficulties (unless it's been a particularly bad day and he comes out spoiling for a fight with his sibling) they just see a quiet, intelligent, quirky child. In years gone by, his difficulties probably would have been overlooked and punished for laziness when he writes his name incorrectly at the age of 11.

Unless someone is actively compromising DS's needs, I have no issue with others having extra support when needed.

The real issue is poor funding, training and access to support services.

Using the legal definition of disabled I highly doubt any child has an EHCP without being disabled.

The Equality Act "defines a disabled person as a person with a disability. A person has a disability for the purposes of the Act if he or she has a physical or mental impairment and the impairment has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities” (S6(1)).

The guidance states "It is not necessary for the cause of the impairment to be established, nor does the impairment have to be the result of an illness." source.

Complex behavioural needs that result in an impairment of functioning to the extent being discussed here and that qualify for an EHCP are a disability.

You don’t need a diagnosis or recognised condition or disability to get DLA. Cerebra guide clarifies this. It is based on needs.

Many parents spend way more on meeting their DC’s additional needs than they receive in DLA and the ever so generous CA. I mean it’s going up a whole £2 a week.