All male colleagues have a Teams channel I'm not on.

[Choux]

My manager is male and all his other direct reports are male. Male dominated industry trying hard to improve the gender balance. Lots of sport esp football talk but generally my colleagues are ok, family oriented blokes.

We wfh most days but go into office together Weds. My manager mailed this morning to all of us to say he wasn't coming to office tomorrow as he was going to the football tomorrow night and couldn't get there in time from the office. (He has a long commute)

Another colleague replied to all to say 'I am coming in still but you all know that as I sent a Teams chat on the subject'. I am not on the Teams chat. It's not clear if my manager is on the Teams chat or not or how often chat is happening on there and what topics are being discussed.

Maybe it's mainly football talk but I'm annoyed at being excluded, him not realising I am excluded and I'm even thinking about all the times over my career I have felt excluded eg hearing the men i sat next to every day in a previous role often went for a beer after work but didn't invite me.

AIBU to start my reply on whether I am going to office tomorrow with 'Which Teams chat is that???'

@SallyWD

Yes I read the OP but Teams chat is just a messaging service on Teams. Just because one employee messaged the boss on Teams Chat it doesn't necessarily mean there's a group chat that OP is excluded from. As I said, me and my boss message each other 1 to 1 on Teams Chat all the time.

Did you read this paragraph:

Another colleague replied to all to say 'I am coming in still but you all know that as I sent a Teams chat on the subject'. I am not on the Teams chat. It's not clear if my manager is on the Teams chat or not or how often chat is happening on there and what topics are being discussed.

The colleague said 'you all know that' because they'd sent a Teams message to a group that Op hasn't received but they thought everyone had

OK I missed the crucial word "all". Apologies!

Another colleague replied to all to say 'I am coming in still but you all know that as I sent a Teams chat on the subject'. I am not on the Teams chat.

@SallyWD - here is where the OP said that the colleague said that they would ALL know that as he sent a Teams chat on the subject.

But you can have a chat the 2 or more others are also on. Teams chat does not have to be 1 to 1.

Indeed, I know. I was just suggesting this might have been a 1 to 1 chat. I was wrong, of course. I agree, it's not on. You should definitely raise it.

Could be a group chat that happened spontaneously with a couple of people. Hence his message mentioned in the OP.

Or could be a boys chat.

You can't be certain.

I would reply to that message about sending it on the teams chat with "which teams chat is that? I didn't see your message" and then wait and see what comes back

What's your relationship like with them?

I get on with them but it's an infrequent contact other than Weds which have been happening for 4-6 weeks. We have a team meeting every two weeks which was previously on Zoom but is now in person. They either weren't in role or I didn't have any contact with them pre Covid so I don't know any of them very well. We still rarely need to meet for work related matters as we all manage teams which are related but not really dependent on each other.

Last week in the office we talked about holidays and whose turn it was next to buy cookies / cakes for our Weds get togethers. They also talk a bit about sport - ok they talk about it a lot!

@Cerealnamechangerer

I would reply to that message about sending it on the teams chat with "which teams chat is that? I didn't see your message" and then wait and see what comes back

or just say "oh i don't seem to be in that group, can someone add me" and then wait and see if they say

"actually its just for x team plus boss" rather than "all direct reports of Boss Y and boss" or it could be just the "we discuss football" chat and someone had just posted the comment there (which wasn't one i assume that all work colleagues needed to know)

The men's club stinks. I had to deal with it when I started out back in the 80s. Unfortunately I think that WFH will make this worse as relationships wont be being forged at work but between those who go out and socialise. It will end up with female workers staying at home with the kids after work and men going out for a beer or footie. For many men sport is such a bonding topic. You can't help wonder if men who don't like sport or pubs will end up being left out too.
I think it depends what outcome you're looking for. If you're wanting to make a show that you're not to be messed with, go down the complaint route or having it minuted as some above suggested.
If you want to be included as part of a team going forward, enquire from a colleague who's in the teams chat and very nicely get them to add you. Or bring it up casually when you're in an informal group.
You can force them to include, but you can't force them to want to include you. And in my experience getting them to do it willingly, pays a lot more dividends.

@Choux

What's your relationship like with them?

I get on with them but it's an infrequent contact other than Weds which have been happening for 4-6 weeks. We have a team meeting every two weeks which was previously on Zoom but is now in person. They either weren't in role or I didn't have any contact with them pre Covid so I don't know any of them very well. We still rarely need to meet for work related matters as we all manage teams which are related but not really dependent on each other.

Last week in the office we talked about holidays and whose turn it was next to buy cookies / cakes for our Weds get togethers. They also talk a bit about sport - ok they talk about it a lot!

Id say if you really wanted to be more included would you agree it's better to get more involved e.g. The meeting after work ect, events like that help you fit in as one of the team so to . ?

On the issue of the manager not asking, would it have made a difference ?

The reason I ask this, is if he is in contact with the others, and they relayed your perspectives on the fence, he could of summarised that as your already been asked then why would him asking make any difference ?

These are all questions, intended to give you different perspectives

Why do you feel the need to be part of their group? Have you thought they might not want you there so they can talk about stuff that they want to chat about.
You don't have to be part of everything that your colleagues do, especially if it's nothing to do with you.
Why can't women just accept that they're not the be all and end all of every aspect of men's lives.
If they'd have wanted you to be part of it, they would have invited you.

Men don’t like women, it’s as simple as that really.

You can ask to be put on the team chat or whatever it is but expect a lot of eye rolling and grumbles and probably another separate all Male one to be set up in its place.

Tricky, we have a womens channel at work which is just women. There are also other channels that exist that I am not in which I don’t object to. Are you in a position to give a friendly reminder to one of them to share work related info in the main channel?

@Wavypurple

Men don’t like women, it’s as simple as that really.

You can ask to be put on the team chat or whatever it is but expect a lot of eye rolling and grumbles and probably another separate all Male one to be set up in its place.

What utter nonsense.

"i don't seem to be in that group, can someone add me"

^ That. Just ask to be added.

It's probably mostly boring niche talk you don't care about, though. I'd be afraid of the sheer boringness of it.

@Wavypurple Don't talk wet.

@AlisonDonut

'I always though the first rule of all male teams chats is you don't talk about all male teams chats, as it can get you in hot water with discrimination claims. Good to have it in writing though, thanks.'

Don't do this. If its innocent football chat that's a massive over reaction and just makes you sound litigious. Something more like your option 1 it's better. Or spottedzebra's no. 4 or herhereherhere are about right. You want to refuse to accept exclusionary behaviour but need to know the lie of the land first.

Challenge it head on but do it calmly.

"What team chat is that? If you're including discussions about work, would someone add me so I don't miss anything."

I've worked with all men and did get included in lots of stuff. They knew I wasn't interested in football though! I am very nice but can be Bolshy McBolshy if necessary and would call them out. I don't hold grudges though so pretty much acted like a bloke.

Have also worked predominantly with women and the Team Whatsapp group was the bane of my life. Someone posted a photo of something (baby, cat, cake) and you'd get twenty people reply with pretty much the response. I decided I preferred working with men!

Having said that, the bloody patriarchy at work is impenetrable. I look at LinkedIn and see blokes I worked with who were fairly average now reaching the dizzy heights of Director or VP and earning shed loads. I don't know any women (friends or ex-colleagues) who have reached the same level. I always thought you could do and be whatever you want but I just cannot see how you can in organisations run by men.

The only organisations who seem to have a fair distribution of women the ranks are either self employed or public sector; healthcare, local government and armed forces.

It could open a can of worms if there’s unsavoury stuff on there, could it go beyond sport? You wouldn’t expect that on Teams in a workplace but if you don’t know about it then it’s not strictly a work thing. I still think you should say something but maybe worth considering how you’d react if the content isn’t ’professional’.

Is there one colleague you are closest to you could ask, and just say you realised that you might be missing out on work chat, even if it was set up originally as a football chat group? I do sympathise though. I found my three closest (male) colleagues were in a WhatsApp group to chat about football. Of the four of us, guess who is the only one with a season ticket?

Why can't women just accept that they're not the be all and end all of every aspect of men's lives. If they'd have wanted you to be part of it, they would have invited you.

It isn't 'every aspect of men's lives'. It is work, where equality laws apply and the OP has the same right as anyone else to relevant information.

I'm sure you know that really, though.

@EggBanjo

Why do you feel the need to be part of their group? Have you thought they might not want you there so they can talk about stuff that they want to chat about. You don't have to be part of everything that your colleagues do, especially if it's nothing to do with you. Why can't women just accept that they're not the be all and end all of every aspect of men's lives. If they'd have wanted you to be part of it, they would have invited you.

Work isnt 'men's lives'. Work is work. And if a female is being kept out of an all male group in an all male team then that would be called 'discrimination'...which because of attitudes like yours is now illegal.

Thanks to all for the different perspectives which have made me think, get a grip and even chuckle.

I think my reaction was not just to the message which could have been a quick chat on a newly set up channel where that all said 'Paul's not going in tomorrow- what are you going to do?'. The person who mentioned the channel is not someone I think who would consciously exclude so I'm not going to go in all guns blazing. I'm going to ask about it when we are next in the office and I can see his reaction.

It's a fine line between chatting to people you get on with and making others feel excluded. Especially if you feel others are bonding with your manager and you have strictly a work relationship with him. But as someone said getting inclusion to happen positively rather than grudgingly gets better results.

I want to progress and your manager supporting and recommending you can make a difference. I'm currently on a leadership coaching programme (my colleagues are not) and we have had sessions on networking and mindset which have got me thinking about past incidents, my mindset at work etc.

I just want a fair crack at the bloody whip!

I left our What's app work teams group when I was employed. Don't want my phone pinging with inane bullshit every 2 seconds. Especially after work.
A few comments/incidents breached GDPR, so it was eventually closed and banned.
The other thing is once the morning catch-up meetings were done, I expected people to carry out the agreed tasks and update in the morning. Not Twitter on during the day for micro meetings and updates.
I was part of management.