Ukranian, welcome! Middleastern, African? Get to back of the bus!

[OldieWordly]

The war in Ukraine is truly horrendous, but so are all the wars happening all around the world. It is happening in Europe, a place this country is geographically and culturally a part of. So we can emphasise more with the Ukranians and hence the outpouring of support.

But it also helps that they are white and look like the majority of this country, and therefore more support is volunteered.

Why do I as a black woman, while feeling great empathy and sorrow, also feel that other asylum seekers also fleeing war and destruction in their home countries, have been relegated to the back of the bus?

Where are the offers of a sponsored home from UK individuals/families and reimbursement of £350 a month? The right to live in the UK for up to 3 years? The right to work, or to immediately access benefits if needed?

Many of you may say, it's not about skin colour, ethnicity etc, it's about humanity. But tell me, why do so many of us black, brown or non white people often have a feeling of being treated subconciously as belonging at the back of the bus? And the welcome given to Ukranian refugees as apposed to those from Syria troubles me greatly.

@ouch321

Don't pretend you can't see the difference between housing a female from Ukraine vs a male from Syria...

Anyone who says the risk level is the same is either trolling or incredibly ignorant.

Yeah I wouldn’t let you be alone in a room with my Syrian relative. He deserves better for a start. The only danger you’d face was being cooked so much good food that you put on a lot of weight, and you’d probably be a bit deafened by his ukulele “skills”.

Thinking middle eastern men a scary collection of rapists and terrorists who would murder you as soon as look at you is glaring fucking racism. I know it’s an anonymous forum but are there no limits to not being afraid of looking like a cunt?

@emuloc. They actually didn’t want to, I was so impressed by their bravery and willingness to fight for their country.

I agree OP. When this topic comes up i often think about the little boy who drowned trying to cross the sea after escaping Syria. These people too are trying to survive a war. Heartbreaking.

@OldieWordly This thread will most likely end up deleted as many people will say it shows lack of empathy for the Ukrainian refugees.

People struggle to understand that we can feel empathy as we rightly should, but still remember the sick feeling in our stomachs at how brown refugees were described and treated, knowing that this is how we too are viewed under the wrong/right lens.

MN is not the place for this sort of discussion unless it's on Black Mumsnet section unfortunately (and even then sometimes it's overrun by idiots who claim the U.K. is not racist but why don't you go live somewhere else if you don't like it). Too many people are unwilling to see their unconscious biases.

@Tillsforthrills

Out of respect for all refugees including the Ukrainians this thread should be deleted.

The lack of sympathy for Ukrainians is disturbing.

I repeat, I have huge sympathy for the Ukranians. But I am not blind and deaf to what is happening around the asylum issue.

If you can't discuss this issue, then you don't have to read the thread and posts. But asking for this thread to be taken down because you don't accept my experiences and viewpoint is highly unreasonable.

If I were to house a refugee I would offer to a woman and or child with a pet . Irrespective of colour .

What I would say on this thread is no amount of shouting someone down will do anything to change their mind . You can't bully people into a change of mindset .

I entirely agree OP. It's so blatant - the level of concern people feel for the Ukrainian refugees is in stark contrast to the wall of indifference about horrific suffering in Syria, Nigeria, Palestine, Yemen, Tigray - it;s impossible to draw any conclusion other than that white people are just more important.

Some of the stories coming out about the treatment of black and Asian people fleeing Ukraine are horrendous. Indian students literally beaten back by border guards. Black children forced off evacuation trains to make room for white Ukrainians. Nigerians told "Poland is that way - you can walk".

We're all horrified, and scared, by what is happening in Ukraine, and it does feel more immediate because it's Europe. But we need to have some hard conversations about how we value people of different races, and the level of personhood we afford to people who don't look like us.

@Cyw2018, exactly this.

@lookforthesun

The people feeling Ukraine are predominantly women, children and the elderly. They are leaving a very active war zone and the men are staying to fight and defend it.

The people arriving on boats from FRANCE are overwhelmingly male, who have left their women and children behind in war zones and are fleeing...well... France.

They are economic migrants and I'm not saying they don't deserve any sympathy but it is a lot less sympathy in most people's minds when you're trying to leave France than when you're trying to leave Ukraine. Especially when they're mainly men and their culture has women so low down the pecking order that they didn't bother to try and bring the women to safety too.

Boat loads of young fit men, leaving women behind to be raped and die in their country or origin.

It's totally different.

This with knobs on.

Yanbu OP. You’ll see the racism of mumsnet displayed in the voting results/ replies (but mostly the voting results cos people don’t have to justify their racism that way)

Katya maybe they have family here?

[quote Katya213]@emuloc. They actually didn’t want to, I was so impressed by their bravery and willingness to fight for their country.[/quote]
Really? what all of them?

[quote GalactatingGoddess]@OldieWordly This thread will most likely end up deleted as many people will say it shows lack of empathy for the Ukrainian refugees.

People struggle to understand that we can feel empathy as we rightly should, but still remember the sick feeling in our stomachs at how brown refugees were described and treated, knowing that this is how we too are viewed under the wrong/right lens.

MN is not the place for this sort of discussion unless it's on Black Mumsnet section unfortunately (and even then sometimes it's overrun by idiots who claim the U.K. is not racist but why don't you go live somewhere else if you don't like it). Too many people are unwilling to see their unconscious biases.

[/quote]
Yes, I agree.

@Rummikub

The majority of Afghan refugees were taken in by Pakistan. The numbers were outstanding.

That’s so good to hear that their neighbouring country would do that. That’s what we are doing for Ukraine but getting branded racist in the process.

@Katya213

It’s all women and children, whilst the MEN fight for their country and not leave women and children behind.

How do you “fight for your country” when your only options are being forced to join a militia and kill your (literal) neighbours, or get shot in the head?

@thebellsesmereldathebells

I entirely agree OP. It's so blatant - the level of concern people feel for the Ukrainian refugees is in stark contrast to the wall of indifference about horrific suffering in Syria, Nigeria, Palestine, Yemen, Tigray - it;s impossible to draw any conclusion other than that white people are just more important.

Some of the stories coming out about the treatment of black and Asian people fleeing Ukraine are horrendous. Indian students literally beaten back by border guards. Black children forced off evacuation trains to make room for white Ukrainians. Nigerians told "Poland is that way - you can walk".

We're all horrified, and scared, by what is happening in Ukraine, and it does feel more immediate because it's Europe. But we need to have some hard conversations about how we value people of different races, and the level of personhood we afford to people who don't look like us.

This.

@lookforthesun

The people feeling Ukraine are predominantly women, children and the elderly. They are leaving a very active war zone and the men are staying to fight and defend it.

The people arriving on boats from FRANCE are overwhelmingly male, who have left their women and children behind in war zones and are fleeing...well... France.

They are economic migrants and I'm not saying they don't deserve any sympathy but it is a lot less sympathy in most people's minds when you're trying to leave France than when you're trying to leave Ukraine. Especially when they're mainly men and their culture has women so low down the pecking order that they didn't bother to try and bring the women to safety too.

Boat loads of young fit men, leaving women behind to be raped and die in their country or origin.

It's totally different.

I do wonder if it is just this....... the demographic (mothers with children, elderly & women) why we are more accommodating. OP you are right to raise it because it's clear the disparity. But if it was white young men arriving they wouldn't be received in the same manner. My observation, is why men bring such devastation to the world! I'm about to duck for cover.

[quote GalactatingGoddess]@OldieWordly This thread will most likely end up deleted as many people will say it shows lack of empathy for the Ukrainian refugees.

People struggle to understand that we can feel empathy as we rightly should, but still remember the sick feeling in our stomachs at how brown refugees were described and treated, knowing that this is how we too are viewed under the wrong/right lens.

MN is not the place for this sort of discussion unless it's on Black Mumsnet section unfortunately (and even then sometimes it's overrun by idiots who claim the U.K. is not racist but why don't you go live somewhere else if you don't like it). Too many people are unwilling to see their unconscious biases.

[/quote]
Yep. It will be deleted or moved to Black MN.

Yes, I totally agree OP. I don't have room to take a Ukrainian refugee. If I did have room, I'd be just as happy if not happier to take someone from another country.

I also wonder how many of the people offering a Ukrainian a home, will quickly retract their offer if a non-white Ukrainian turns up at the door...

If colour/race/religion/age/culture didnt affect the way we construct our self image then the importance of representation wouldnt be a thing. We could all watch middle age white blokes achieve stuff and think "He's such a good role model, I can be like that".

As for the media narrative, give it a few weeks. Empathy has a short half life. Brexit was an excellent demonstration of how little skin colour matters when it comes to public tolerance for immigration.

@PutinSmellsPassItOn

Katya maybe they have family here?

Yes, of course they do!

@BewareTheLibrarians I consider any male a higher threat than female even when race isn't brought into it, so that's one.
Also while considering all of them rapists/terrorists is dramatic - the treatment of women in certain cultures is appalling. Including mine. We (as in all people around the world) aren't 'all human', some of 'us' think that girls have less value than boys, don't need school and can be traded and married off at someone else's whims.

YANBU and there have been other countries actually saying the words these are white so we need to help them.

However of course not everyone is like that and the main reason the UK and other countries are taking this so seriously and are so desperate to help - is simply because it affects us.

In the Middle East we can ignore what’s going on as that’s all the way over there.
This war is over joining NATO which we’re apart of and it’s a lot closer to home.

We care because we hope if it was happening to us, other countries would care too.

Massive generalisation I know but it’s true that people often only care if they think it’s affects them.

@crackofdoom

I agree with you OP, and it leaves a bitter aftertaste. I think part of it is the constant media coverage of every atrocity in Ukraine, complete with loads of human interest stories, which will naturally evoke enormous sympathy, whereas attacks on civilian populations in Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan etc are not covered to such an extent. (And, yes, racism and Islamophobia).

The recent situation in Afghanistan was covered for hours on end not that long ago. There were endless human interest stories. Partygate knocked if off the top spot and then the situation in Ukraine began. If the argument is that white people only want to house white people then surely Afghan families already living in this country could have come forward in their droves to house some of the families of interpreters who are in hotels. Black families could come forward and house the black students who were not allowed into Poland.

This thread should not be deleted because it is discussing something that some people find uncomfortable.