To think history will judge the U.K. over ukraine

[Letshaveablackcelebration]

I am so ashamed at how the U.K. is the only country in Europe effectively closing its doors to Ukrainian refugees. These are mostly women and children fleeing a country that has collapsed in the space of 2 weeks. A maternity hospital was bombed yesterday.

The rest of Europe is opening its arms and helping in every way it can but the U.K. had pretty much slammed the door, made it as difficult as possible to come. The U.K. signed the refugee convention in the 50’s that said that people fleeing war don’t need tons of paperwork and yet that’s exactly what they are asking people for.

I feel so embarrassed when everyone else is helping that we are doing nothing- we are an outlier in Europe.

I hate what this country has become under this disgusting government. I see so many posts on social media or brits wanting to do more.

@LibrariesGiveUsPower

If you drill down to other European countries that aren’t bordering with Ukraine there are a few saying they will take 2000 refugees and only give them a year visa.

U.K. government has said a 3 year visa and 760 had been approved by yesterday with 17700 applications. Hopefully those will be processed rapidly now but it does seem that there’s too much paperwork.

We certainly aren’t moving fast enough yet, but there are other European countries who are only taking 2000 top by the looks of it. Switzerland Iceland, can’t find figures for Norway. Several other countries saying they are open but no figures for.

You "drilled down" and yet ignored the EU? Super research. The EU says they will grant Ukranians the right to stay for 3 years. No caps mentioned as yet. If Switzerland and Iceland are your reference points, why not Ireland?

Just for information, we are not even in the top ten of most densely populated countries

And not even in the top five for Europe.

@LondonWolf

What’s wrong with that?

Nothing. Why don't you go back and read my actual posts instead of the ones you and others have made up in your minds and used as an excuse to call me a racist

I've read your carefully worded posts and have come to my own conclusions.

[quote madbadrad]@BeHappy91818 see below.

Many of those wanting to reach the U.K. are doing so as part of the shambolic family scheme. It's important to consider the significant of reconnecting with family after escaping a war and experiencing such a high level of trauma. Having that love and familiarity at a time like that is more important that ever. The alternative is finding yourself cast adrift in an unfamiliar country with no one to support you. Yes you are physically safe from harm but the impact on mental health will be much worse.

Also consider that many of these people will live with family who are here already.

The lack of empathy of people on this thread is shocking

[/quote]
I understand it traumatic but my point still stands that we can’t and don’t house the thousands of people living rough in this country and if we cannot handle that then we shouldn’t be taking in thousands of more people.

[quote BeHappy91818]@Lesperance I’m not talking just about Europe. The world is far bigger then just Europe.[/quote]
You're still not a tiny island. It's a pathetic excuse. You should be ashamed of yourself for even evoking it. "The world is bigger than Europe", that's the worst instance of passing the buck. And it still doesn't make Great Britain a TINY island. These attitudes are a disgrace. Utterly shameful. Total NIMBY. The whole 'we're full' thing. 'I want forests and space for my kids'.
Look at Ireland. Look and see how it should be done.

This absolutely isn’t true in my area @BeHappy91818 There is one rough sleeper who chooses to do this. The council employ a team who house everyone who wants to be and supports them to claim benefits. Often the housing used isn’t very good. But it’s a roof over the head.

@Hospedia

Just for information, we are not even in the top ten of most densely populated countries

And not even in the top five for Europe.

Exactly. It's just pathetic excuses. Don't use excuses, just say you don't want the people to come. Be honest. But no, it's all "oh there's no space, oh the schools, oh the hospitals". I should think a country that could roll out the covid vaccine so efficiently could manage to welcome some Ukranians efficiently. But there isn't the political will.

Sashagabadon is spot on
The Ukrainians themselves say we have done more to help them than other countries.
The only area we need to be ashamed is Priti Patel's abject failure with visas. How on earth that hopeless woman keeps her job is beyond me.

I've read your carefully worded posts and have come to my own conclusions

So because we have issues with homelessness we shouldn't take in refugees? Are you serious? Homelessness isnt an issue that is unique to the U.K. it's is a problem throughout the world any across most other wealthy nations too. Both need addressing not one or the other. So if there is a problem with homelessness everywhere, where should refugees go?

I am very interested to know what you'd do if you life was in danger due to war or persecution? If everything you had worked hard to achieve was destroyed? Whether that be your home, your business or your career?

People in this country are far too complacent about the safety and freedom they enjoy. That's not saying some people don't have it tough here. But there is a very mean minded inward looking segment in our society and it's very sad.

Let's be truthful about this.
If I invade your home and threatened you at gun point, you would want to get me out and return , NOT move into a castle in Scotland.
Anyone who wants to come and live in the UK with no contact to the UK and travels across that many countries to be refused at the edge of France is not a true refugee.
They are using the War and targeting the UK as trade up destination.

@Lesperance for the size of the uk we are overpopulated.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t like it or not or think it’s shameful. It’s fact. We are overpopulated! We have a huge homelessness problem which needs sorting before we house thousands of other people and why shouldn’t we have green space for our kids to run about!

The world is also bigger then just Europe and the UK! Lots of country’s have far more space and can accommodate them better.

I’m not ashamed of my opinion that I think we need to sort out the huge problems we already have here housing the people on our streets I see daily over taking more people in.

I’m disgusted too, but have been since 2016 when racism effectively became the driver of this country.

The UK has taken some of the strongest measures and heavily encouraged other countries to do so as well, in pursuit of stopping Putin but without provoking WW3. So I don't think our efforts will be negatively viewed from that perspective. Our prime minister has spoken out far more strongly than others.

But
People struggle to get healthcare here, our NHS is literally bursting at the seams. It's undeniable that it's in total crisis. Every year people struggle with school places, classrooms are overcrowded. What about mental health services? People kill themselves before they can get help. Housing demand massively outstrips supply. I honestly do not think that we are the right place for refugees, despite the fact that I would want to have them come here and that they deserve to be able to come here.

@x2boys

I think the point is we already have a huge homeless problem ,I realise it's complex and there are lots of people who have drug and alcohol issues and can't maintain tenancies etc. But there is also a hidden homeless problem ,with families living in B&B,s and other inadequate accommodation for far too long and this isn't being dealt with

It’s not being dealt with because there is the lack of political will.

@BeHappy91818
Id really like hear your answers to the below

So because we have issues with homelessness we shouldn't take in refugees? Are you serious? Homelessness isnt an issue that is unique to the U.K. it's is a problem throughout the world any across most other wealthy nations too. Both need addressing not one or the other. So if there is a problem with homelessness everywhere, where should refugees go?

I am very interested to know what you'd do if you life was in danger due to war or persecution? If everything you had worked hard to achieve was destroyed? Whether that be your home, your business or your career?

People in this country are far too complacent about the safety and freedom they enjoy. That's not saying some people don't have it tough here. But there is a very mean minded inward looking segment in our society and it's very sad.

@PenStation

This absolutely isn’t true in my area *@BeHappy91818* There is one rough sleeper who chooses to do this. The council employ a team who house everyone who wants to be and supports them to claim benefits. Often the housing used isn’t very good. But it’s a roof over the head.

Maybe try walking through some other areas of the UK then.

If the UK had just let the people with family ties or some kind of sponsorship that they have agreed on but made it a quick and easy process there would be much less judgement. Its a long way to the UK for people with no connections here and many of them would probably prefer to stay somewhere closer to home. It's the elderly parents and young relatives of UK citizens who are waiting in the cold for days, maybe running out of funds, for a visa they are entitled to that looks terrible for the UK. Even Torys are appalled by this chaos.

@THisbackwithavengeance

"Angry and ashamed". Get a grip. Yes, it's obviously the UK's fault that Putin has invaded Ukraine.

I used to work with refugees; the UK accepts plenty. You need to come off social media.

There is a process which needs to be followed. Technically, refugees should stay in the first safe country they enter, not pick and choose. That's a European policy, by the way not a UK policy. If you allow an undocumented and unprocessed free for all, you will get thousands of people claiming to be Ukrainian just to get in.

Some people on here are so full of bile and resentment because their political party of choice didn't get elected, they will never agree with anything the Government does on the principle of it. It's ridiculous.

That isn’t correct. They should register in the first safe country, but the papers are then valid anywhere in Europe, so they can, and are encouraged to, go on to disperse the exodus and reach family or friends, or countries where their skills will be valuable. (Like maybe somewhere they speak a little of the language?!) That was the whole point.

Anyone who’s ever been over a border in Europe knows you can just drive/walk/hopscotch over them anyway. Except Switzerland, where you need to pay a modest fee. Although I imagine they waive it if you walk, as it’s for using the motorways.

Why is the UK a practical alternative?
It is 1500km and a ferry from Ukraine.
Is it because benefits will be easier and more generous and permanent?

[quote madbadrad]@BeHappy91818
Id really like hear your answers to the below

So because we have issues with homelessness we shouldn't take in refugees? Are you serious? Homelessness isnt an issue that is unique to the U.K. it's is a problem throughout the world any across most other wealthy nations too. Both need addressing not one or the other. So if there is a problem with homelessness everywhere, where should refugees go?

I am very interested to know what you'd do if you life was in danger due to war or persecution? If everything you had worked hard to achieve was destroyed? Whether that be your home, your business or your career?

People in this country are far too complacent about the safety and freedom they enjoy. That's not saying some people don't have it tough here. But there is a very mean minded inward looking segment in our society and it's very sad.[/quote]
Clearly I’m serious or I wouldn’t of wrote what I did.

I’d personally stay and defend my country like the women who are over there and help out. I wouldn’t flee.

There’s your answer.

@AmbushedByCake

Don't need to wait for history. The UK government is being judged internationally and by a large chunk of the UK population already.

^ The U.K government have admitted that they misjudged how the U.K would feel about refugees. Probably because we have a strong history of NOT welcoming refugees. But these are white refugees so it’s different.

@Jonjim

The refugees are spreading across Europe not just coming here. Those coming here are primarily reuniting with family who are already settled here through a family scheme. When displaced by its logical for many reasons to join family already in safe countries.

@BeHappy91818 Im wondering do you have young Children? If so would you stay and still stay to defend your country? I can tell you that I would do anything in my power to get my child to safety.

Yes the refugee response has been pitiful. Really pitiful.

However I am incredibly proud of the fact that the UK was one of the few countries to arms and training to Ukraine in advance of the invasion that everyone could see coming and armed well (no late helmets and as PP pointed out unsafe to use weapons) we are also sending the most advanced anti aircraft missiles available (which we should of we can’t help with a no fly zone) we acted in a timely and generous fashion. Not that you would think that from reading mumsnet.

Tell you who I’m judging pretty fucking hard right now, Germany is refusing to complete the block of Russia from swift. In the big scheme of things as these things are written in history books it won’t be lost on future generations that Europe is STILL buying russian gas and oil. The UK and the USA has said they will no longer buy.