Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Diocese banning visit from gay author and sacking governors that approved it

278 replies

gymgymgo · 09/03/2022 12:43

The Archdiocese of Southwark over-ruled one of its own headteachers and is sacking some governors because they approved the visit of a children's author who writes books about fictional gay characters. They've said the visit is "outside the scope of what is permissible in a Catholic school". The school's chaplain has said "the event is about promoting the literature of a lifestyle choice that is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ." Some of the teachers are now threatening strike action. Aibu to think this story will blow up in the diocese's face?

inews.co.uk/news/catholic-state-school-john-fisher-southwark-diocese-governors-cancel-visit-gay-author-simon-james-green-1505735

OP posts:
Ncwinc · 09/03/2022 20:27

I had 16 years of indoctrination before my parents let me opt out and I’m fully aware of Catholicism thanks.

pointythings · 09/03/2022 20:28

[quote Bellalastrasse]@pointythings

Why do you need to struggle with the moral compass of such people? That’s fairly meaningless. You don’t have to concern yourself with other peoples beliefs and vice Verza. You certainly don’t need to judge them on your own moral scale.

Sounds quite bizarre. You don’t have to agree with the church. Many practitioners don’t agree with all of it.

It is, as I have said, both more complex than the rubbish written about it implies and yet more simple a faith than the doctrine people get wound up about, think.[/quote]
I beg to disagree. Everyone should be concerned with people who hate. Only the other day my foster son was called a f*ggot in public. Religion fosters and nurtures such behaviour and it is up to the rest of us to condemn that sort of thing utterly.

People are of course free to believe their toxic crap - but it should be kept out of schools that my taxes pay for, and it should carry the same stigma that racism used to do. People should be too ashamed to say such things in public. Until we tackle the institutions that promote the belief that it is not anything to be ashamed of, we are failing too many young people.

I have no issues at all with people who choose not to believe in the promotion of hatred and bigotry. There are plenty of them about. But I will always take issues with those who choose to be racist, homophobic, misogynist - because they make this world a worse place.

OpheliaThrupps · 09/03/2022 20:29

It’s not - I ‘ve just explained it! Being ‘gay’ is not a ‘sin’ for Catholics

I'm sorry @Bellalastrasse, you are doing yourself and your religion no favours. This is absolutely the "dancing around" that I was talking about. It's such a ridiculous abstraction to say that there's nothing wrong with being gay, as long as you don't have sex. Or that gay sex would be fine within marriage. But you're not allowed to marry. This really is an insult to the intelligence of anyone with functioning critical faculties, made even worse by an attempt to dress it up as high-level moral philosophy.

If the stupid rules weren't enough to put me off religion, the damage that it does to people's reasoning definitely swings it!

mummykel16 · 09/03/2022 20:30

[quote Hoardasurass]Unfortunately this is to be expected and I fear only the tip of the iceberg so to speak.
I have long expected that there would be a massive push back against Stonewalls extreme pro trans stance and ideological indoctrination of all parts of government and in particular educational institutions and because stonewall have linked the TQ+ to the LGB then it puts LGB people in the firing line for the push back add to that the fact that stonewall itself has become homophobic which normalises homophobia and allows groups like the Catholic Church to justify their own extremist views.
The law passed this week in florida should be a warning to us all www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60576847[/quote]
Nothing wrong with that law, in that setting

Liveandkicking · 09/03/2022 20:32

@OpheliaThrupps

It’s not - I ‘ve just explained it! Being ‘gay’ is not a ‘sin’ for Catholics

I'm sorry @Bellalastrasse, you are doing yourself and your religion no favours. This is absolutely the "dancing around" that I was talking about. It's such a ridiculous abstraction to say that there's nothing wrong with being gay, as long as you don't have sex. Or that gay sex would be fine within marriage. But you're not allowed to marry. This really is an insult to the intelligence of anyone with functioning critical faculties, made even worse by an attempt to dress it up as high-level moral philosophy.

If the stupid rules weren't enough to put me off religion, the damage that it does to people's reasoning definitely swings it!

It’s not ridiculous. It’s what millions of Christians believe all around the world, not just catholics. You may strongly disagree, as is your right.
Bellalastrasse · 09/03/2022 20:33

Show me anything in Catholicism that teaches hate.

I beg to disagree. Everyone should be concerned with people who hate. Only the other day my foster son was called a f*ggot in public. Religion fosters and nurtures such behaviour and it is up to the rest of us to condemn that sort of thing utterly.

The two scenarios are only linked in your mind as you see religion as a fosterer of hate. That is about your knowledge or lack of, religious beliefs and practices. I don’t know of a single faith that would foster that hate in its name.

Practitioners of that faith are different - we see in the Southwark diocese an example where in my view they have got it very wrong. That legitimises those who want to act hatefully. There is a distinction.

As I say, I do not agree with any of this. But neither do I agree on the response that you have had to assume religion = hatred

RandomBasic · 09/03/2022 20:35

rainbow cock monkeys

???

Bellalastrasse · 09/03/2022 20:39

@Opheliathrupps

I think you have got this all wrong. Utterly. I am not defending my religion, as it is not a faith I practice. I am trying to illustrate the point within the faith to show how it arrives at the conclusion it does - sin is about the relationship with the ‘self’ and how we treat ourselves. Most of what I read attacking Catholicism is at odds with the adherents of the faith and seems very biased.

Of course, people are free to judge it (I do) but I like to think I have made my judgements based on understanding what it is about today rather than 100 years ago.

RandomBasic · 09/03/2022 20:41

@Bellalastrasse

Show me anything in Catholicism that teaches hate.

I beg to disagree. Everyone should be concerned with people who hate. Only the other day my foster son was called a f*ggot in public. Religion fosters and nurtures such behaviour and it is up to the rest of us to condemn that sort of thing utterly.

The two scenarios are only linked in your mind as you see religion as a fosterer of hate. That is about your knowledge or lack of, religious beliefs and practices. I don’t know of a single faith that would foster that hate in its name.

Practitioners of that faith are different - we see in the Southwark diocese an example where in my view they have got it very wrong. That legitimises those who want to act hatefully. There is a distinction.

As I say, I do not agree with any of this. But neither do I agree on the response that you have had to assume religion = hatred

The Bible is full of hateful things. If your child is disobedient they should be put to death. A woman who is raped needs to marry her rapist. If she didn't scream, stoned to death. An affair? Stoned to death? Gay? Stoned to death. Listen to voices telling you to kill your son. Keep slaves but don't beat them to death.

The thing is they pick and choose which bits are true through mental gymnastics. So you can wear mixed fabric because that's the old law, but some old bits are still true. Basically, "the bits that sound nice and kind are true, and the horrible bits have expired."

Hoardasurass · 09/03/2022 20:42

@RandomBasic the comment is about a costume worn (attached picture) at a library event to promote children's reading

Porcupineintherough · 09/03/2022 20:44

@pointythings

Bellalastrasse I struggle massively with the moral compass of people who are able to accept that their deity wants gay people never to have sex because only a married male/female couple is allowed to have sex. You'd need to be seriously twisted to find that acceptable.
Almost all sex is sinful according to Catholoc teaching. Within heterosexual marriage for procreation only isnt it?
Annoyedtoomuch · 09/03/2022 20:44

elliejjtiny

‘Promoting homosexuality’????!!!! WTF?!!!

Firstly, it as a book with fictional characters who were gay (so a reflection of real life) not literature encouraging being gay.

Secondly. Sexuality is NOT a lifestyle choice. That attitude is archaic and damaging. I’m assuming you are heterosexual? Did you make that choice? No. You just are. Just like people who are gay, just are.

Bellalastrasse · 09/03/2022 20:45

@pointythings

it should carry the same stigma that racism used to do. People should be too ashamed to say such things in public

I find this a really alarming statement. Religious belief is often entwined with some peoples whole identities. People have always been persecuted for it. It is difficult when you come from older, religious countries to separate the parts out. Would you really want people to feel intimidated in public because of that? Seriously?

Bellalastrasse · 09/03/2022 20:46

@Porcupineintherough

No. Where did you hear that?

bellac11 · 09/03/2022 20:49

@CounsellorTroi

The school's chaplain has said "the event is about promoting the literature of a lifestyle choice that is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ."

Jesus never said anything about it.

Im glad someone else spotted this, at what point did the person that was Jesus talk about homosexuality?

Plus 'lifestyle choice'

Im amazed quite frankly that they have said all this.

Yes I think it will blow up in their faces.

Bellalastrasse · 09/03/2022 20:49

@Randombasic

And Catholicism is New Testament- one of that hell fire stuff. Central message is Jesus - love thy neighbour stuff, turn the other cheek, do unto others.

Bellalastrasse · 09/03/2022 20:49
  • none not one
Annoyedtoomuch · 09/03/2022 20:50

AhhhHereItGoes

The Catholic Church.

Where you can hush up and excuse child sexual abuse but you can't even tolerate fictional writings about gay people.

Good point. Just another example of the massive amounts of hypocrisy in so called religious organisations.

Bellalastrasse · 09/03/2022 20:52

@Randombasic

I think your quote proves my point. None of that stuff is Catholic.

Some of it might be Protestant - I don’t know but Catholics are not really concerned with Old Testament. Only New.

Porcupineintherough · 09/03/2022 20:52

@Bellalastrasse erm at (Catholic) school. It was a long time ago but I'm pretty sure on the heterosexual and procreative aspects. And most definitely that it should be within marriage.

RandomBasic · 09/03/2022 20:53

[quote Hoardasurass]@RandomBasic the comment is about a costume worn (attached picture) at a library event to promote children's reading[/quote]
Wtf

Bellalastrasse · 09/03/2022 20:56

@AnnoyedtoomI have
Have you spent much time thinking about those victims of abuse? Donated any money to charities to help them? Offered to listen to any Catholic colleagues who might need to talk about it?

Anything? Or are you just using the awfulness of what those people went through to take a swing at the Church body? Because you should realise if they do that to their own, they really don’t give a toss about you? So how about instead of treating this as a war of words do something to help the victims if you care about them.

bellac11 · 09/03/2022 20:57

@LadyRoughDiamond

We live in a secular country. Anyone who goes to the effort of finding a job at or getting their child a place at a place at a religious school knows what they’re getting. And, frankly, they deserve what they get.
Bit difficult if thats the school thats nearest to you and its where your child gets a place
RandomBasic · 09/03/2022 20:59

[quote Bellalastrasse]@Randombasic

And Catholicism is New Testament- one of that hell fire stuff. Central message is Jesus - love thy neighbour stuff, turn the other cheek, do unto others.[/quote]
It is not 'just new testament'.

Imagine if the highway code had Jane Austen's Emma as the first half? "Oh we keep it in for historical context."

If the old testament isn't part of the Bible why keep it in and keep reference to all the prophesies saying the new testament is the fulfillment of them? But it isn't really relevant, but it is.

The Bible is a contradictory tangle and there are literally thousands of people who have had as their full time jobs coming up with explanations for the contradictions.