Page 6 | to think society has lost the ability to allow opposing views anymore

stripeyflowers · 08/03/2022 12:02

@FavouriteFortnight

Well I largely agree with your initial point OP but quoting John Pilger, talking about “mainstream media” and “sheep” suggests you’re on a bit of a slippery slope.

Yes, most situations are much more complex and nuanced than most people acknowledge, and it’s good to listen to alternative points of view.

But seeing the likes of John Pilger as the “truth” and to conclude we are therefore being lied to by MSM is frankly a very blinkered and frankly dangerous way to start thinking.

Why does 'mainstream media' and 'sheep' suggest a slippery slope?

Knittingchamp · 08/03/2022 12:06

@allmixedup12

there is no space left in the UK/US for opposing views anymore and any kind of debate feels totally polarizing. It seems the public has been dumbed down to understand black and white are the only two colours - i feel uncomfortable raising doubts anymore in public for the fear of being attacked

Brexit vs EU love
Trump vs Democrats
Covid vs Deniers/doubters
BLM vs I'm not racist, and no one else is either
Russia/China bad - UK/US good
NATO is innocent - Putin is Satan (neither is true)
woke vs not woke?
BBC vs RT
Indyref vs Union
Islamophobes vs Liberals

Insane how difficult it has become to voice opposing opinions without being attacked personally as a fascist/racist/insensitive/crazy

It's 100% social media based. Social media is a useless, terrible place to speak about anything but cats, your favourite colour and photos of your baby.

We've all gotten accustomed to bashing out super complex political and social narratives that require sensitive and nuanced cultural references and language, but on twitter to complete random strangers and a selection of bots. It's an embarrassment to us all, really, especially the excruciatingly high levels of slacktivism and terrible dehumanising comments that have become totally fine (currently the 'whatever, Ukraine, what about Syria' comments. If that's what you think then DO something offline to help, don't make Ukrainians who are currently being murdered feel extra shit because you're using them as an example of another wholly terrible social problem to further what is, at the end of the day, your narcissistic, unhelpful slacktivism).

We need to go back to the cats and babies on social media, and leave the proper deep stuff offline where those topics can get the necessary detailed and considered thought, discussion and activitism that they deserve.

MorrisZapp · 08/03/2022 12:07

My heart breaks for the people of Ukraine, and like everyone else I've been stunned by Zelensky's strength of character.

But. There's always a come down, a reality check. I think it's potentially just as harmful to elevate a person as it is to revile them. What do we in the UK really know about Zelensky? If he ever proves to be problematic in any way, we've insulated ourselves against believing it.

MorrisZapp · 08/03/2022 12:08

Absolutely agree, knittingchamp.

seashellsunderthesand · 08/03/2022 12:56

This is exactly the point the Op was making. She has never professed to be on a side, you have immediately allocated her a position based on the fact that she was thinking over something she has watched/read.
I suppose that "taking sides", instinctively, without questioning any element, however small, in a war type of situation isn't necessarily bad, especially if directly involved. There wouldn't be time or energy to focus on anything apart from prevailing over the enemy, once in combat. However, this kind of thinking, when not directly involved isn't helpful in resolving any type of issue, and not being able to discuss causes and both sides of an argument won't help with its resolution.

seashellsunderthesand · 08/03/2022 12:58

@Polyanthus2

Telling civilians there is a safe corridor then bombing it - you're definitely on the right side OP

This is what I was quoting

Vitani · 08/03/2022 13:36

Had anyone seen the lecture on US-Russia-Ukraine from 6 years ago, given by John Mearsheimer at Chicago uni?

What's the general opinion on him?

FavouriteFortnight · 08/03/2022 13:42

Why does 'mainstream media' and 'sheep' suggest a slippery slope?

Because it’s the kind of language used by conspiracy theorists and other people with fringe views to justify their positions - that everyone else is blindly following the mainstream narrative but they are uniquely enlightened to know the truth.

It’s exactly that kind of thinking that leads to the polarisation of debate that the OP is complaining about.

balalake · 08/03/2022 13:47

I think OP what you describe started with Brexit and the unexpected 52% in favour.

MsMD · 08/03/2022 13:58

Donald Trump is a rapist who openly mocked women who had been assaulted.

No, I have absolutely no patience at all for people who think he is God.

Respecting opinions is for 'I like coffee. Well, I don't', NOT 'I like to sexually assault women'.

Ludicrous we need to explain this.

allmixedup123 · 08/03/2022 14:18

@MsMD

Donald Trump is a rapist who openly mocked women who had been assaulted.

No, I have absolutely no patience at all for people who think he is God.

Respecting opinions is for 'I like coffee. Well, I don't', NOT 'I like to sexually assault women'.

Ludicrous we need to explain this.

74.2 million Americans voted for Trump in 2020. I doubt many of them think he is god.

I dont like Trump one bit. But you're kind of making my point where views from across the bench are "ludicrous"

allmixedup123 · 08/03/2022 14:29

@Vitani

Had anyone seen the lecture on US-Russia-Ukraine from 6 years ago, given by John Mearsheimer at Chicago uni?

What's the general opinion on him?

For me this Mearsheimer video is what started it on this Ukraine topic and i start googling and found the alternative perspective. UChicago is quite respected but I do not know a lot more about Mearsheimer himself. Video was 2014, so maybe the world has changed. He is still teaching there though and not kicked out/cancelled

Polyanthus2 · 08/03/2022 14:41

It's ok to complain about people being intolerant of others' views but the problem arises when the others' views are materialised as restrictions on the other side eg Brexit - nearly half the voters did not want to leave.
Inderef, nearly half the voters did want to leave, trans rights more than half the population have their rights restricted to allow trans rights to be increased.
Brexit and Indyref should have had sensible debate in parliament and a decision as to how big a majority is needed for such a major change in the country.
To say just accept the change and shut up won't work.

MsMD · 08/03/2022 14:47

*74.2 million Americans voted for Trump in 2020. I doubt many of them think he is god.

I dont like Trump one bit. But you're kind of making my point where views from across the bench are "ludicrous*

The view that you can sexually assault women because you're rich and can get away with it? The view where some women could not have been raped because they're too ugly?

No, I will not respect those views so that you can shout about acceptance. It's sick.

Theluggage15 · 08/03/2022 15:14

I didn’t say NATO was the cause of the war, I said it was one of the reasons @VisaQuestions

Alonelonelylonersbadidea · 08/03/2022 15:15

Yea people are no longer using or learning critical thinking, even at universities.
For those who think it doesn't happen in real life, I've basically been cancelled by 3 family members and I've known one woman who has lost her job. I even had someone (my employee!) come into my office and take me to task over something I liked on LinkedIn.
It's ridiculous.
I've been called a racist by someone before they knew that my kids and partner are NOT white.
It all beggars belief.

Lilifer · 08/03/2022 15:20

@MsMD

*74.2 million Americans voted for Trump in 2020. I doubt many of them think he is god.

I dont like Trump one bit. But you're kind of making my point where views from across the bench are "ludicrous*

The view that you can sexually assault women because you're rich and can get away with it? The view where some women could not have been raped because they're too ugly?

No, I will not respect those views so that you can shout about acceptance. It's sick.

I also think that in relation to Trump many of those people were voting republican, not necessarily because they like Trump so much as they just have always and will always vote republican because they are conservative in their political leaning. Someone who normally votes conservative is hardly going to vote for a democratic candidate because then they will have a democratic administration and so they stick with their republican vote regardless of the presidential candidate or their feelings about him.

Lilifer · 08/03/2022 15:25

@FavouriteFortnight

Why does 'mainstream media' and 'sheep' suggest a slippery slope?

Because it’s the kind of language used by conspiracy theorists and other people with fringe views to justify their positions - that everyone else is blindly following the mainstream narrative but they are uniquely enlightened to know the truth.

It’s exactly that kind of thinking that leads to the polarisation of debate that the OP is complaining about.

Conspiracy theorists use the word "and"

I use the word "and" too

Does that make me a conspiracy theorist?

Conspiracy theorists are not the only people to use the phrase mainstream media - what a ridiculous suggestion - what term then do you suggest we use to describe the dominant news outlets ??

Ncwinc · 08/03/2022 15:54

The media?

Noodlewave · 08/03/2022 16:13

@MsMD

Donald Trump is a rapist who openly mocked women who had been assaulted.

No, I have absolutely no patience at all for people who think he is God.

Respecting opinions is for 'I like coffee. Well, I don't', NOT 'I like to sexually assault women'.

Ludicrous we need to explain this.

Justin Trudeau is a racist who repeatedly wore black face to social functions.

No, I have absolutely no patience at all for people who think he is God.

Respecting opinions is for 'I like coffee. Well, I don't', NOT 'I like to perpetuate racial stereotyping'.

Ludicrous we need to explain this.

Jaxhog · 08/03/2022 16:18

You are right, sadly. You missed the trans v. feminism 'debate' (or lack of)

It's as if we've lost the ability or desire to listen to someone else's point of view other than to agree or disagree absolutely. To the extent where many of us dared expose our beliefs. It is truly sad.

Jaxhog · 08/03/2022 16:19

dare not

LondonWolf · 08/03/2022 16:39

I posted a thread with almost this exact title about two years ago and was mainly told that some things shouldn't be allowed to be said or thought and anyone who defended the right to say them and was then "cancelled", deserved it. How things change.

FavouriteFortnight · 08/03/2022 18:06

@Lilifer

Conspiracy theorists are not the only people to use the phrase mainstream media - what a ridiculous suggestion - what term then do you suggest we use to describe the dominant news outlets ??

I think it’s pretty clear what I meant. OP is talking about the output of John Piliger as “the truth” and then using it to question what is being “fed to us by mainstream media” that people are following “like sheep”.

Sorry, that’s the line of thinking that gets you into conspiracy theory territory. Yes, by all means listen to a range of voices, yes interrogate why they are saying what they are saying but assuming that one person with a fringe viewpoint is telling the truth and therefore everything else you hear must be a lie is not a healthy way to inform yourself.

allmixedup123 · 08/03/2022 18:27

[quote FavouriteFortnight]@Lilifer

Conspiracy theorists are not the only people to use the phrase mainstream media - what a ridiculous suggestion - what term then do you suggest we use to describe the dominant news outlets ??

I think it’s pretty clear what I meant. OP is talking about the output of John Piliger as “the truth” and then using it to question what is being “fed to us by mainstream media” that people are following “like sheep”.

Sorry, that’s the line of thinking that gets you into conspiracy theory territory. Yes, by all means listen to a range of voices, yes interrogate why they are saying what they are saying but assuming that one person with a fringe viewpoint is telling the truth and therefore everything else you hear must be a lie is not a healthy way to inform yourself.[/quote]
is Mearsheimer also “fringe” - or is anyone whose view is not mainstream automatically considered as non credible in your books?

Can you also explain why you think Pilger/Mearsheimer are not to be believed.