to think society has lost the ability to allow opposing views anymore

[allmixedup12]

there is no space left in the UK/US for opposing views anymore and any kind of debate feels totally polarizing. It seems the public has been dumbed down to understand black and white are the only two colours - i feel uncomfortable raising doubts anymore in public for the fear of being attacked

Brexit vs EU love
Trump vs Democrats
Covid vs Deniers/doubters
BLM vs I'm not racist, and no one else is either
Russia/China bad - UK/US good
NATO is innocent - Putin is Satan (neither is true)
woke vs not woke?
BBC vs RT
Indyref vs Union
Islamophobes vs Liberals

Insane how difficult it has become to voice opposing opinions without being attacked personally as a fascist/racist/insensitive/crazy

Definitely but this is a worldwide problem. The issue is people are in their own echo chambers on social media, they surround themselves with people who think like them and do when accosted with an opposite view they can’t cope. It’s like their whole world view has been changed.

This cartoon by the Oatmeal sums it up better than I ever could.

theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

Great Res et

PLus the media love to dramatise everything, so fuel flames.

Telling civilians there is a safe corridor then bombing it - you're definitely on the right side OP

But... This is her point. You are proving it. She hasn't said she is on Putin's side at all, and discussing causes of the war isn't making excuses.

I tried talking to DP about NATO expansion last night and he was all "so what's your point?" I'm not really making a point, I'm just trying to discuss what has lead up to this point, "well we are the good guys compared to them" he was very accusatory in tone. I never said we weren't the "good guys"!? He just seemed ready to put down.

People will assign you motives and thoughts and beliefs over the smallest thing. All I did was mention that there are influences that played a part in the invasion, not that that makes it OK or that NATO are the bad guys. I wasn't making a value judgement. I told him to stop putting words in my mouth when I've said nothing of the sort, nor do I think it.

Totally agree @allmixedup12 With my brother and his wife, there are certain subjects we are just not allowed to discuss. They’re correct and that’s that. It’s like living in a real life version of 1984 where my view means nothing and I’m made to feel like an ignorant twat for daring to suggest anything else. I gave up in the end and our conversations are very surface level now eg boring.

@PleaseDontDriveMeBlind people are frustrated that so many accept that NATO expansion caused his war.

It’s a pretext given, but Putin has explicitly stated that he views Ukraine as part of Russia. He’s also given many false flag reasons to invade, from imaginary nukes to nazism.

It suits the left wing liberals to give the NATO answer, but if you are entering the debate from the position of accepting the NATO excuse you’ve actually already disregarded a fair few facts and accepted some bias.

Also answering the above to @Theluggage15 regarding nato

I always took the line that if you aren't saying anything racist, sexist etc then you have nothing to worry about, but then they came for me.

The Scottish indyref was my first taste of being on the 'bad' side. It was a massive reset moment for me because it made me think, hang on, I know beyond doubt that I'm not a fascist. So maybe... some of the people I'd dismissed as mean, evil, full of hate or whatever in the past might actually be normal?

Then came the whole trans thing and I'm literally self censoring on social media so that I don't lose friends.

Looking at peaceful protesters being flung in police vans in Russia, clearly we live in a relatively free society. But we've become weirdly self policing, with the punishments being social rather than legal.

If you think 'yeah but I'm OK because I'm not a fascist' then good luck. My head is spinning from how suddenly I found my cuddly, liberal self on the baddie list.

that so many accept that NATO expansion caused his war.

But I didn't even say it is the cause of the war. Wars don't just have one cause. I just said it was one factor more than anything, not that that legitimises anything or that the war is therefore fine, or that there aren't other more important reasons. I never got a chance to discuss it further than that because I was seen as saying it's ok then, which obviously it is not.
I'm well aware he views Ukraine as part of Russia, and maybe we would have gotten on to that as well had I not felt there's no point because my words were getting twisted to have intent that wasn't there.

Then be calm, be informed and state your facts. Twisting words or pulling at a lack of knowledge is a common technique.

My family are in Ukraine, bar kids who’ve got to Poland. I went to the Trafalgar Square protest to be confronted first by a British National views with the f word and then a group of twats with hammer and sickle flags.

I wanted to slap someone or scream, at the Putin apologies too. I wanted to cry and rage.

But I just walked down to Parliament square with everyone else who was displaced and protested calmly. I wasn’t going to either back down because they were big men, nor give the news photo of me covered in blue and yellow attacking anyone.

If you believe in something you need the strength to stick with it.

I agree. The minute you try and discuss anything to do with the whole changing gender or sex thing you are immediately told you are transphobic. There doesn’t seem to be any middle ground of debate or exploration of views it’s one extreme to another

[quote ClemFandangoo]Definitely but this is a worldwide problem. The issue is people are in their own echo chambers on social media, they surround themselves with people who think like them and do when accosted with an opposite view they can’t cope. It’s like their whole world view has been changed.

This cartoon by the Oatmeal sums it up better than I ever could.

theoatmeal.com/comics/believe[/quote]
that oatmeal link is completely awesome. thanks for sharing.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

I take it you're a putin apologist?

This is the exact issue OP was raising - if you introduce any nuance into an argument you must be an apologist for the bad people. It's so blinkered.

@MangyInseam great posts. I was also deeply troubled to see some of the things universities were embracing but with blind spots as to actual practice or effects, or even consistent data/information when it comes to certain characteristics. I have known 3 very good EDI people act up to the same vacant senior role and then not be appointed, with challenges and suggestions ignored.

[quote allmixedup12]@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation No i am not for war nor do i know putin/russia well enough to have a real opinion, yet. I do think when incredibly ethical and high quality independent journalists write something, it is worth reading and thinking about than following like sheep[/quote]
John Pilger is high quality and incredibly ethical?

.

OP you are not open to accepting that Pilger could be wrong on this. That’s absolutely your right, but maybe you are following him like a “sheep” and therefore as guilty as the rest of us?

First, on John Pilger, i find his content thought provoking. I read both sides - so I will read John Pilger but also David Nott. Just because I am raising a question is not a sign of blindedness/sheep behavior.

Most of his documentary work is freely available on this website. I havent seen anything yet which would make me doubt his motivations. Can you please share with me the facts/reasons why you doubt him ?

topdocumentaryfilms.com/

The really shocking one for me were the ones on palestinian crises.

Second, in any case, I am not married to his views, but i do very much find it interesting to see two sides of the same coin. This conversation for me is about whether being open minded on controversial topics is possible or not.

No one is debating war is bad, of course it is horrible. I cannot even imagine in from the comfort of my first world existence.

John Pilger is very much on the hard left and like many members of that tribe seems to have weird blind spots: usually it's Russia and Jews. He is capable of being more truthful than mainstream media in some situations, and less truthful in others.

I always took the line that if you aren't saying anything racist, sexist etc then you have nothing to worry about, but then they came for me.

That's the problem, one group of highly opinionated people decide to rigidly define terms like 'racist' 'sexist' etc and then go around as judge, jury and executioner towards anyone who is not 101% on their self-defined message! I know of a few people on this site who have been called 'racist' for daring to ask questions about BLM etc., the funny thing is that they're 'of colour' themselves!
The truth is that free speech is dead now.

You are correct in my opinion and I have to wonder if this environment has been brought about intentionally to ruin our society.

I think there's always been a human tendency to want to enforce rules, belong to a club and denounce heretics. The way people discuss trans rights on Twitter is not much different from old fashioned preachers threatening hellfire and damnation to anyone who didn't follow their rules to the letter, and believers competing to be the most virtuous.

The problem now is that we have social media, so it's not people ostracising their neighbours or denouncing unconventional women as witches, it's now very easy to anonymously organise bullying of ordinary people on a large scale, even to the point of petitioning their employers or inciting violence.

I still have respectful and nuanced discussions with friends about things like Brexit and trans rights. I don't know if the intolerance is just from a very noisy minority, but I am definitely much more fearful of talking about controversial topics with strangers or in public, and sometimes I keep my views quiet.

@allmixedup12

there is no space left in the UK/US for opposing views anymore and any kind of debate feels totally polarizing. It seems the public has been dumbed down to understand black and white are the only two colours - i feel uncomfortable raising doubts anymore in public for the fear of being attacked

Brexit vs EU love
Trump vs Democrats
Covid vs Deniers/doubters
BLM vs I'm not racist, and no one else is either
Russia/China bad - UK/US good
NATO is innocent - Putin is Satan (neither is true)
woke vs not woke?
BBC vs RT
Indyref vs Union
Islamophobes vs Liberals

Insane how difficult it has become to voice opposing opinions without being attacked personally as a fascist/racist/insensitive/crazy

This about sums it all up.

It is interesting - or alarming - that in the US the Democrat Party was always very centrist, certainly not socialist. But now it has been hijacked by some with extreme views, which leaves middle-of-the-road voters with… what? Republicans?

Ds was reading a film book and mentioned that until relatively recently the stars would all mix, and a fair few would be Republicans as well as the liberals. Now it would be death to your career to be anything other than super woke.

I simply don’t understand how this has all happened, where moderate views can’t be discussed, and people genuinely fear for their jobs if they don’t buy into the Emperor’s New Clothes narrative.

Doesn't the old saying go never talk about politics and religion or something like that
I think certain things at work is just not appropriate , always know your audience as such and in work that may not be the case
But OP you seem to be following one journalist only and reading from that , and I guess tbh most people do not see justification in innocent people being called or having to flee their homes, there always has to be another way

OP you are completely correct and of course you will be called a Putin apologist.
Sadly facts/truths/grey areas on causes get pushed to one side if they don't fit and often do get picked up by those who are a bit or a lot left field ( not left in the political sense before my words get twisted!) and then discredited.
It's extremely alarming to watch people arguing for an escalation of this war and the basis they are coming to that conclusion on.