to think society has lost the ability to allow opposing views anymore

[allmixedup12]

there is no space left in the UK/US for opposing views anymore and any kind of debate feels totally polarizing. It seems the public has been dumbed down to understand black and white are the only two colours - i feel uncomfortable raising doubts anymore in public for the fear of being attacked

Brexit vs EU love
Trump vs Democrats
Covid vs Deniers/doubters
BLM vs I'm not racist, and no one else is either
Russia/China bad - UK/US good
NATO is innocent - Putin is Satan (neither is true)
woke vs not woke?
BBC vs RT
Indyref vs Union
Islamophobes vs Liberals

Insane how difficult it has become to voice opposing opinions without being attacked personally as a fascist/racist/insensitive/crazy

You’re absolutely right. It’s very damaging to the left in particular as there is no room for nuance, you’re either pro all covid mandates or a raving anti vax, you either believe whole heartedly in all pillars of critical race theory or you’re a racist, you accept trans activism and sex hormones for children or you’re a transphobe. I believe it’s got to the point where a “normal person” can’t weigh in on matters or voice a maybe not perfectly articulated thought, without being shut out of conversation altogether. I wholeheartedly blame identity politics and the rise in populism, social media and fake news too, these things have combined to create a world where people are operating in alternate realities where the opposite side is painted as batshit crazy and people are hyper aware of any sign that you might be “them” rather than “us”. There is no grey area anymore.

Although OP I thought that NATO expansion was a pretty well accepted “motive” behind what Putin has done? No one is saying it is an acceptable motive but I thought it was standard news that NATO had expanded further than agreed and this is something that contributed to Putin’s actions? It’s sad that you feel unable to bring that up, but it is a sign of the times eg people calling you a “putin apologist” for even mentioning a well known fact!

Where I work, we barely get the chance to talk about non-work stuff because we're so busy, but when we do it's inane trivial matters, holidays and what people are doing at the weekend. Not politics! There are things to talk about other than politics, you know. Lots of people have different political views and vote different parties, so I'm not sure how these conversations don't go down like a lead balloon at work. It's honestly best avoided.

@Allsorts1 "people are hyper aware of any sign that you might be “them” rather than “us”"

this is a very interesting observation...makes a lot of sense. alternate realities also rings a bell - for eg. not knowing anyone who voted for brexit or trump...but they were the majority of population...

That being said, someone got fired at my work before for droning on about conspiracy theories in front of our service users, like Qanon and cabal shit. It was so wholly inappropriate and batshit.

www.rferl.org/a/nato-expansion-russia-mislead/31263602.html

"Did The West Promise Moscow That NATO Would Not Expand? Well, It's Complicated. "

@cuno

That being said, someone got fired at my work before for droning on about conspiracy theories in front of our service users, like Qanon and cabal shit. It was so wholly inappropriate and batshit.

Was the rest of the colleague s conversations strictly professor chat ?

*professional work chat ?

Was the rest of the colleague s conversations strictly professor chat ?
The person kept bringing it up and making everyone uncomfortable, none of us were talking about anything remotely to do with politics.

I've been saying this for a while now. It feels as if there must only be binary positions with no nuances or shades of grey.

Also though, I think all of this is made worse by the fact that a significant proportion of people don't really care whether the information they share/quote is correct, just the fact that it backs them up.

It's become more important to be able to shout someone down than to genuinely consider the evidence.

Take Trump for example. There is absolutely no evidence that the election was rigged for Biden to win. But Trump followers believe it wholeheartedly - on the basis of evidence to the contrary. It's mind-boggling.

I feel it's frustrating that people can't concede a point, even if they don't want to change their overall views. So again, going back to the example re Trump. If you're a Trump supporter, then you can still be a Trump supporter while acknowledging that he's wrong about rigged elections.

I'm an ardent, passionate Remainer who still believes the country voted the wrong way in the referendum. But I can still acknowledge things that "our side" did wrong, and that there are some benefits to Brexit, even if I don't think they sway my overall opinion.

I'm sick of this whole mentality that someone must be utterly and completely terrible or wonderful, godlike and amazing. We're losing our critical thinking abilities and society is being pushed further apart than ever before.

There is a strong authoritarian element in some sections of society at the moment, and a lot of polarized rhetoric. I won't call it debate because it doesn't actually rise to that.

I'm fairly involved in universities and it's shocking what they have become. Instead of opening up the minds of young people they seem to be narrowing and hardening their thinking. My own workplace which deals in freedom of information issues is completely terrified of controversy from any identity groups.

As for the person asking what crazy ideas might get someone called a bigot: I pointed out in a discussion about a protest that involved blocking a bridge that this kind of tactic in some instances had turned public opinion to the point that many people began to support greater legal restrictions on protests, and that it might be worth considering whether it was a good approach in the bigger picture. For which comment I was called a colonialist and a bigot among other things. I didn't even offer an opinion on the issue the blockade was about!

One thing I would say is that things in the UK seem to be a lot better than they are here in Canada.

As for the person asking what crazy ideas might get someone called a bigot
The word was fascist, not bigot! I have never had to worry about being called a fascist. And if I was called that, I'd have to laugh.

Yanbu. I've been called all sorts here for liking drag, I was told I had to be racist too based on that fact. Madness.

@cuno

Political discussions aren't acceptable where I work. Touching on what's been in the news in general terms (i.e. isn't it awful for the Ukrainians) is okay, versus going on a lecture about NATO and the history behind Russia invading Ukraine? I don't understand why you feel the need to enlighten your colleagues on your thoughts on politics and history, I would think this is inappropriate no matter what "side" you are on.

It's funny though. We had unconcious bias training in my workplace. It didn't focus or even talk much about actual delivery of services and where they might be done better.

It was mainly about certain theoretical ideas that are somewhat controversial, and about social/political ideas that are certainly controversial. There is no way that everyone who was doing that training agreed with what this training was telling us we were supposed to think about various subjects given that there are employees from all kinds of different backgrounds.

But while it was possible to speak in favour of what was being taught, there is no way it was possible to speak against it without a lot of worry. Firstly about whether it would affect your job prospects. But also because most people feel that what you are saying is correct - we don't bring political and social controversies to work if we can possibly avoid it.

But the workplace managers were the ones doing it, and this is very common now, putting everyone in the position where they have to stay silent about issues where no one's boss has any business telling them what to think.

@Allsorts1

Although OP I thought that NATO expansion was a pretty well accepted “motive” behind what Putin has done? No one is saying it is an acceptable motive but I thought it was standard news that NATO had expanded further than agreed and this is something that contributed to Putin’s actions? It’s sad that you feel unable to bring that up, but it is a sign of the times eg people calling you a “putin apologist” for even mentioning a well known fact!

I have seen people do this on many many topics. It seems to be on the increase. They think if you talk about causes, you are making excuses.

I am never sure if they believe the causes don't exist or we simply aren't supposed to mention them.

I think it's worrying that so many young people can't be faced with ideas that run contrary to what they've been told, believe, think wrong etc. They seem to have little ability to handle or process things that do not tie in with their beliefs. They preach tolerance but can't see the irony of shutting down opposing ideas.
We're moving towards a situation where 67m people are going to be expected to all think the same, which isn't feasible, and those that don't, run the risk of being ostracised.
For a society that is becoming more educated, and therefore we would expect more enlightened, we're actually becoming more close-minded and regressive.

When did Donald Trump ever allow an opposing view?

For god’s sake he interrupts, degrades, is constantly on the attack and is forever insulting people he disagrees with. Their political party doesn’t matter to Donald.
And he’s still ranting & raving about the “rigged election” well over a year later.
He’s not known for his respect for others.

Signed, a Republican

You’ve picked a journalist who claimed Russia’s poisoning of Sergei Skripal in Salisbury was actually part of an anti Russian campaign and that the U.K. was actually responsible for the attack.

The same journalist claims that the passenger plane shot down in Ukraine www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28357880
was actually part of an anti Russian campaign and that Ukraine was actually responsible for the attack.

I’m waiting to see him explain how the Russian invasion of Ukraine is actually a false flag attack.

@Allsorts1

You’re absolutely right. It’s very damaging to the left in particular as there is no room for nuance, you’re either pro all covid mandates or a raving anti vax, you either believe whole heartedly in all pillars of critical race theory or you’re a racist, you accept trans activism and sex hormones for children or you’re a transphobe. I believe it’s got to the point where a “normal person” can’t weigh in on matters or voice a maybe not perfectly articulated thought, without being shut out of conversation altogether. I wholeheartedly blame identity politics and the rise in populism, social media and fake news too, these things have combined to create a world where people are operating in alternate realities where the opposite side is painted as batshit crazy and people are hyper aware of any sign that you might be “them” rather than “us”. There is no grey area anymore.

Excellent post. Spot on. The direction we are going in is quite terrifying. There is no free speech anymore. You are shut down if you don't agree/fit in. And the vitriol and bullying if you dare to voice another opinion. In some cases the consequences can be far reaching so people have learnt to keep their mouths shut. It is insidious as it has crept upon us over the last two decades with the rise of social media and populism amongst other things. It is a form of control, and it's working. Young people can't debate properly or accept there is an alternative point of view. MSM only have one narrative. It is also what MSM doesn't say that should be listened to the most. It is so worrying to me and I have felt it for a long while. Most people don't even realise what is happening. I feel very, very uneasy about the future. Frightened actually.

Telling civilians there is a safe corridor then bombing it - you're definitely on the right side OP

Young people can't debate properly or accept there is an alternative point of view.
I'm pretty sure I had some very strong but ill-thought out views as a teen - cringe when I look back I don't think things have changed there.

@allmixedup12 Pilger is also an Assad apologist. He's...not a good choice to illustrate your point.

Partly because he does exactly the same thing you've expressed a concern about- he doubles down on a narrative (in this case roundly supported by Russian bots). It's a kind of Trutherism.

There's a kernel of something in what you're saying- it bothers me when teen relatives say they don't debate in class anymore because they're worried about saying the 'wrong' thing (but maybe this also is not widespread). But it's not the same as 'oooh I think opposite to the 'mainstream''. That's also a very rigid position.

Totally agree op. And some of the replies so far on this just illustrate your point!

I think people who aren’t open minded and refuse to acknowledge that things/people aren’t all good or all bad are extremists. It would be terrifying if we all had the same view (a dictatorship). It’s healthy to have a balanced view. If you have a slightly differing view to the mainstream media (even if it’s nowhere near extreme, you just question a few things) then you are demonised. I’m scared that censorship is coming back.

@Ncwinc

You’ve picked a journalist who claimed Russia’s poisoning of Sergei Skripal in Salisbury was actually part of an anti Russian campaign and that the U.K. was actually responsible for the attack.

The same journalist claims that the passenger plane shot down in Ukraine www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28357880
was actually part of an anti Russian campaign and that Ukraine was actually responsible for the attack.

I’m waiting to see him explain how the Russian invasion of Ukraine is actually a false flag attack.

There are a few posters using Pilger - expressing the outlandish and totally unproved pro Russian sentiments outlined above- to highlighting and justifying Putin’s drive to subjugate Ukraine and obliterate it’s democratic right to exist as an independent sovereign state. No doubt you will find your tribe in such posters to support your views but the overwhelming majority of posters here see Putin’s brutal invasion for what it truly is.