to think society has lost the ability to allow opposing views anymore

[allmixedup12]

there is no space left in the UK/US for opposing views anymore and any kind of debate feels totally polarizing. It seems the public has been dumbed down to understand black and white are the only two colours - i feel uncomfortable raising doubts anymore in public for the fear of being attacked

Brexit vs EU love
Trump vs Democrats
Covid vs Deniers/doubters
BLM vs I'm not racist, and no one else is either
Russia/China bad - UK/US good
NATO is innocent - Putin is Satan (neither is true)
woke vs not woke?
BBC vs RT
Indyref vs Union
Islamophobes vs Liberals

Insane how difficult it has become to voice opposing opinions without being attacked personally as a fascist/racist/insensitive/crazy

Usually when people say "I feel like I can't even say what I think any more without fear of ", that's not a good sign. On MN they're usually opposed to trans rights, in the wider internet/world it'll generally be something racist/sexist/homophobic. Political correctness gorn mad innit. I'm ok with not hearing those views.

Ok - so in work we have a new Equalities Monitoring form, just introduced this year. It doesn't monitor the sex of applicants. I would like to raise this as an issue, but I don't think I can without marking myself as potentially transphobic. Is that reasonable? Is it transphobic to think that the sex of applicants should be included alongside gender identity, ethnicity, sexuality, religion and whether the person identified as disabled or not?

@GrolliffetheDragon I always wonder why we need to know any of this , surely the best person for the job should be the case
I don't care what sex, colour, religion they are
I think cv should be sent in stating applicant no. And no details other than work history , qualifications

@stupidandconcearned of course it is not a good idea to discuss “controversial” subjects at work etc BUT it seems the prevailing wind is “if you’re not with us you’re against us” in some quarters. So if you say no thank you to displaying your preferred pronouns you’re a bigot.

I’ve just become aware of “bi-phobia” which apparently is not being open to bisexuality yourself On an innocuous thread about the delights of Stanley Tucci, on came someone to berate the participants for their mono fancying .

Pilger may be well-intentioned, but it doesn't mean he's right. I agree there are shades of grey. There are only ever shades of grey, which is a difficult stance to tolerate for most of us, and impossible for a few.

But wrt to what's going on in Ukraine and the wider politics, it always comes down to this for me: would I prefer to live in Russia, or in the UK? That tends to settle things quite quickly.

[quote stupidandconcearned]@GrolliffetheDragon I always wonder why we need to know any of this , surely the best person for the job should be the case
I don't care what sex, colour, religion they are
I think cv should be sent in stating applicant no. And no details other than work history , qualifications [/quote]
It's the equalities monitoring form, so the panel don't see it, it gets removed from the applications and is anonymous. It is literally just for monitoring purposes - if we didn't get applications from people from a BAME background we would look at why that was and consider if there were other places we could advertise - not actually a problem for us as we have close links with a number of BAME networks. We get a quite a few applications from LGB people as well - don't know about trans people as gender identity wasn't on our previous form. Don't have a problem with it being included at all, just annoyed that sex isn't included.

@Polyanthus2

Young people can't debate properly or accept there is an alternative point of view. I'm pretty sure I had some very strong but ill-thought out views as a teen - cringe when I look back I don't think things have changed there.

What has changed is that your views would once not have progressed much further than the dinner table at home. Now with "social media", today's teens get a much bigger platform upon which to air their dodgy ideas.

[quote DottyHarmer]@stupidandconcearned of course it is not a good idea to discuss “controversial” subjects at work etc BUT it seems the prevailing wind is “if you’re not with us you’re against us” in some quarters. So if you say no thank you to displaying your preferred pronouns you’re a bigot.

I’ve just become aware of “bi-phobia” which apparently is not being open to bisexuality yourself On an innocuous thread about the delights of Stanley Tucci, on came someone to berate the participants for their mono fancying .[/quote]
Well that's not really bi-phobia. Bi-phobia is more like the whole bi people can't be faithful, bi people need to be with multiple people at once, bi people aren't picky and will shag anyone, bi people can't be trusted...

And getting shunned from the LGBTQ+ 'community'. Was never any sort of community for me. Great fun as a teenager surrounded by incredibly homophobic peers to then get told I was too straight and wasn't welcome when I tried to get involved with the LGB community.

@GrolliffetheDragon oh that makes sense when its done like that

@allmixedup12
"because i talking about non work things at work too. am i unique?"

I don't know about where you work, but where I worked, unless it was part of the job, no we didn't discuss contentious issues. We were there to do a job and we all subscribed to certain beliefs that underpinned that job (Occupational Therapy) apart from that, and actually part of it, was that people had the right to their own choices and opinions and that it was no part of our job or work time to debate these.

[quote godmum56]@allmixedup12
"because i talking about non work things at work too. am i unique?"

I don't know about where you work, but where I worked, unless it was part of the job, no we didn't discuss contentious issues. We were there to do a job and we all subscribed to certain beliefs that underpinned that job (Occupational Therapy) apart from that, and actually part of it, was that people had the right to their own choices and opinions and that it was no part of our job or work time to debate these.[/quote]
I work in financial services - i cant state employer but a money manager. Geopolitics/social dynamics is often part of understanding what is happening in the world and making business decisions. Same for when you're hiring and whether you agree with new rules around sex/gender/age/nationality etc. and whats driving it

For eg. If i am managing money it is very relevant whether brexit happens or not to the pound, how covid is dealt with for several businesses, how ukraine-russia war plays out for several energy investments.

So lines are often blurred. and having open debates is needed to reach the right conclusions even in work context.

I was a student in a communist country, lived half of my life with censorship and looking over the shoulder, but we still had debates, agreed to disagree and had interesting discussions about anything and everything without being worried about words. Words are good, or so we thought.
It is alarming the level of censorship and reporting that's happening at the moment in 3rd level education institutions. In countries like USA, UK, Canada - democratic societies! I listened few days ago to a podcast talking about this and it is scary. Students reporting professors or other students, professors reporting students...it's gotten to the level of Mao's China. A professor was reported because of use of words to exemplify an incident that happened ages ago and those words were racist. How can one teach that the word was wrong if one cannot say it?! Stories are being changed, books are being taken out of circulation, history is forgotten. The extremes of society get more and more vocal, while the moderate majority is minding their day to day life and live in fear of not saying the wrong thing that might finish their career or their life as they know it.
Families and communities are falling apart because we cannot have a conversation. It's become a my way or no way world.

Well I largely agree with your initial point OP but quoting John Pilger, talking about “mainstream media” and “sheep” suggests you’re on a bit of a slippery slope.

Yes, most situations are much more complex and nuanced than most people acknowledge, and it’s good to listen to alternative points of view.

But seeing the likes of John Pilger as the “truth” and to conclude we are therefore being lied to by MSM is frankly a very blinkered and frankly dangerous way to start thinking.

YABVVU to compare Putin invading a sovereign nation and opening fire on its civilians in the interest of rebuilding his empire with differences of opinion within a safe, stable democracy.

@Hawkins001

www.rferl.org/a/nato-expansion-russia-mislead/31263602.html

"Did The West Promise Moscow That NATO Would Not Expand? Well, It's Complicated. "

This is one of the best and most informative pieces I have read on this topic, thanks for posting.

@janeseymour78

Dont forget transphobe versus terfs. I know loads of women who have done so much for other women who are now being cancelled.

I was even challenged for following the wrong kind of person on Twitter. There is no nuance anymore.

Yes, I've encountered this too. Someone I'd casually known through local stuff for a few years just announced she was unfollowing everyone who follows JKR on Twitter.

If you don't pick a 'side' you seem to be just as vilified - you must have an opinion on something at all times!

And getting shunned from the LGBTQ+ 'community'. Was never any sort of community for me. Great fun as a teenager surrounded by incredibly homophobic peers to then get told I was too straight and wasn't welcome when I tried to get involved with the LGB community.
@GrolliffetheDragon things seem to have come full circle now where people attracted (exclusively or otherwise) to the same sex are being pushed out of LGB groups by heterosexual people with green hair.

@PleaseDontDriveMeBlind

Telling civilians there is a safe corridor then bombing it - you're definitely on the right side OP

But... This is her point. You are proving it. She hasn't said she is on Putin's side at all, and discussing causes of the war isn't making excuses.

I tried talking to DP about NATO expansion last night and he was all "so what's your point?" I'm not really making a point, I'm just trying to discuss what has lead up to this point, "well we are the good guys compared to them" he was very accusatory in tone. I never said we weren't the "good guys"!? He just seemed ready to put down.

People will assign you motives and thoughts and beliefs over the smallest thing. All I did was mention that there are influences that played a part in the invasion, not that that makes it OK or that NATO are the bad guys. I wasn't making a value judgement. I told him to stop putting words in my mouth when I've said nothing of the sort, nor do I think it.

Exactly. It is her point!

There are lots of examples of things we accept differences of opinion about: support of different political parties, import of university education, is it OK to have a pet dog, morals of private education and healthcare.

This is quite different to accepted a difference of opinion about whether racism is OK. Some things aren't OK.

A friend said that very same thing this morning. It's so polarised. It's a LIKE or DISLIKE. Where are the grey areas? On every topic there are opinions that are too unacceptable to be aired and should you try you will be castigated or shut down or lose your job etc. It became blatantly obvious with Covid. Free speech is dead.

@kerryleigh

I was a student in a communist country, lived half of my life with censorship and looking over the shoulder, but we still had debates, agreed to disagree and had interesting discussions about anything and everything without being worried about words. Words are good, or so we thought. It is alarming the level of censorship and reporting that's happening at the moment in 3rd level education institutions. In countries like USA, UK, Canada - democratic societies! I listened few days ago to a podcast talking about this and it is scary. Students reporting professors or other students, professors reporting students...it's gotten to the level of Mao's China. A professor was reported because of use of words to exemplify an incident that happened ages ago and those words were racist. How can one teach that the word was wrong if one cannot say it?! Stories are being changed, books are being taken out of circulation, history is forgotten. The extremes of society get more and more vocal, while the moderate majority is minding their day to day life and live in fear of not saying the wrong thing that might finish their career or their life as they know it. Families and communities are falling apart because we cannot have a conversation. It's become a my way or no way world.

I Travel to Canada and the US a lot - when I watch the news channels it doesn't feel like real news reporting anymore - it's biased and there are so many big events that just aren't reported at all. I just switch it off now. I generally feel as though I'm living in some weird world these past years where half the story is missing. Anyway, the post above was put more eloquently than my post upthread. I have an innate feeling of doom and am fearful of where this is all heading. Frightening.

@stripeyflowers

A friend said that very same thing this morning. It's so polarised. It's a LIKE or DISLIKE. Where are the grey areas? On every topic there are opinions that are too unacceptable to be aired and should you try you will be castigated or shut down or lose your job etc. It became blatantly obvious with Covid. Free speech is dead.

Yep, free speech is dead!

@stripeyflowers

A friend said that very same thing this morning. It's so polarised. It's a LIKE or DISLIKE. Where are the grey areas? On every topic there are opinions that are too unacceptable to be aired and should you try you will be castigated or shut down or lose your job etc. It became blatantly obvious with Covid. Free speech is dead.

Yep! Free speech is dead!

Well, free speech is dead on the internet anyway. In real life the vast majority of people don't have those far-left 'extremist views.

I largely agree with your post @allmixedup12.

I agree that ANYone who goes against the social justice warriors opinions, is (allegedly) a thick racist piece of gammon. The left-leaning are just too busy telling people with opposing views that they're racist, thick, badly-educated, and evil, to actually engage in a proper debate with them.

I have zero tolerance for them now, and refuse to engage in any conversation with them. I post my views and ignore any goady remarks back that are said purely to bait people into a big argument. If it's Twitter, I block them.

I'm embarrassed for them actually. they really don't see how they're coming across. Oddly, I don't know anyone like this in real life. Some of the posters on here are like some posters on Twitter. 'Woke,' liberal lefties, with bizarre far-left views and opinions, that NO-ONE has in real life.

And 'cancel culture' is rife on Twitter. I mean, as IF someone would be ignored/cast out/sent to Coventry for having an opposing view to the left in real life.

If someone said to someone in real life -'you voted for Brexit, I don't want to speak to you again ever' they would be laughed into the middle of next year, and would be asked 'what are you, FIVE?! To push someone away, and ignore them, stick your fingers in your ears, shout la la la I'm not listening coz you're a thick, racist, bigot la la la' is just pathetic and childish.

There is even a poster right now - this morning - on a thread on here - who claimed (just before 10am today) that she is taking in 2 female Ukrainian refugees, and her sister, and her friend are taking some in too. Then 2 hours later, she started ranting about how disgusting it is that the government won't give visas to Ukrainians, so they can come here. Totally contradicting herself with each passing post, whilst berating and goading and insulting other posters who said they don't feel comfortable 'taking in refugees...'

Just like on Twitter, I ignore that type on here too.

I also know a number of young-ish people (mid 20s to mid 30s,) who were an absolute NIGHTMARE when they were at college and university. SO left-leaning that their left ear scraped on the ground. You couldn't say ANYthing unless it stepped in line with the 'woke,' and the liberal, far-left. Absolute unadulterated virtue-signalling at its very worst...They were impossible to talk to. They have grown out of that phase now thankfully.

disclaimer- not ALL left wing/liberal people are like this. Only the far-left extremists.