I don't think all men 18-60 should be forced to fight and not allowed to leave Ukraine. It should be the choice of individual men and women.

[Jjjayfee]

I just saw a young father in tears as he said goodbye to his wife and baby. He is not allowed to leave Ukraine, but has to stay and fight. I think it should be a choice of individual men and women.

@Clarabe1

It’s worth remembering that it was only 80 years ago that we conscripted men into the army and we would do it again if need be. It’s the realities of war.

1963 was not 80 years ago.

@blackcurrantjam

I think it's possible to want to stay and fight and also cry on leaving family members. If I was in a position to do so, I'd stay and fight or contribute in some way, even get the children to help if at all possible like some are doing.

You wouldn't want the children sent to safety?

@montysma1

I wouldnt fight politicians wars for them. Its the fact that the population is willing to be told to do this that let's there be wars at all. The politicians who cause them certainly aren't out there getting shot at. Why should anybody else.

Oh.

So they should have just rolled over and let Russia invade and take over their country then, yes?

All together now, sisters : ‘What do we want?’

‘Equality!’

‘When do we want it?’

‘Er, only when it suits us, thanks. Definitely not when it might involve getting shot at, which sounds horrid. So we’ll leave that to the men.’

Equality is not possible when rape is commonly used as a wartime weapon. Obviously I’m not saying that men can’t get raped but when you look at the precedent that is set by using this as a weapon, it’s the women that they are raping. And men can’t get pregnant. We are already starting on uneven footing.

I haven't read the full thread.
I think it would be expected. Who else can fight otherwise?!
Unfortunately rape is used as a weapon of war against women so men staying does make more sense from this point of view. Whether we like it or not women are much more likely to be vulnerable.
Rapes of Ukrainian women have been occurring by Russian soldiers. according to some sources, they then kill the women,

If men and women all stayed behind then child refugees would be on their own. It happened with evacuees in ww2 but it is a bit of pot luck; some were lucky with the families they stayed with and some weren’t. I imagine it would be scary from the children to be separated from both parents unless they absolutely had to.

This is true, but even more pertinent is the fact that the evacuation of children was only possible because we hadn’t yet been invaded, so had control of our own transport system. This isn’t the case in Ukraine, where the Russians are already in the country, disrupting transport and posing danger to civilians. There’s no way it would be remotely safe to send unaccompanied children anywhere there at the moment.

Men are physically stronger and women are more generally caregivers. As has been said previously, rape is a weapon of war, the rape of the women of Berlin in the last war by Russian soldiers is a well documented example. Apart from the horror of the act itself, it's a way of demoralising and destabilising a fighting force or any post-battle resistance. There's also the aspect of getting the next generation away to safety should the present generation of men that are fighting not survive.

Beats getting shot at, though, doesn’t it?

I'd rather get shot at than raped as part of genocide. And the Russians, historically, are famous for it.

And feminism, at least mine, isn't about equality. It's about freeing women from the patriarchy. War being part of the patriarchy. Any wars fought between two female leaders? Like, ever?

While Ukrainian fertility is low, it's because a lot of women have one child and stop rather than very large numbers remaining childless. And the age at first birth in Ukraine is very young compared to western European countries - early 20s is normal. So a relatively high proportion of young women will already be mothers to young children.

In most countries of the world, mandatory conscription is only for men. Only a handful apply it to women as well.

Well I suppose if some men prefer they can run away. But if the Ukrainians prevail such people might reasonably not expect to be welcomed back by those who stayed behind.

Why should they be if they won't try and protect their country?I realize that seems uncivilized to pampered individualistic westerners, but it's really what it comes down to, isn't it?

@PlanetNormal - Seriously Morcambe and Wise are funnier than you

Have you read about the fall of Berlin & what happened to women there - or Bosnia ?

@PlanetNormal I think you should check your bearings. Because that's definitely not the planet you're on

That's all well and good but there are reports of men trying to 'escape' in the boots of cars and they're getting picked up and sent back.

If you think the UK wouldn't do that, maybe they would or wouldn't, if they wouldn't, just appreciate your privilege and leave it at that.

This is from Sky News earlier:

Ukrainian men try to escape country in car boots
Men have hidden in the boots of cars and jumped on trains in desperate attempts to flee Ukraine, the country's ministry of internal affairs has said.

In its latest update, the ministry said some men had also pretended to be foreigners or tried to bribe border guards.

Ukrainian men of fighting age are currently not allowed to leave the country and are being strongly encouraged to fight against Russian forces.

One man was discovered in the boot of his wife's Lexus at a border checkpoint in Luzhanka on the Hungary-Ukraine border.

Another was found hiding among possessions in the boot of a Mitsubishi car.

The man had then tried to pay the border guards,

Another man jumped on a train and tried to cross the border without passing border control, the ministry said.

@TibetanTerrah

That's all well and good but there are reports of men trying to 'escape' in the boots of cars and they're getting picked up and sent back.

If you think the UK wouldn't do that, maybe they would or wouldn't, if they wouldn't, just appreciate your privilege and leave it at that.

This is from Sky News earlier:

Ukrainian men try to escape country in car boots
Men have hidden in the boots of cars and jumped on trains in desperate attempts to flee Ukraine, the country's ministry of internal affairs has said.

In its latest update, the ministry said some men had also pretended to be foreigners or tried to bribe border guards.

Ukrainian men of fighting age are currently not allowed to leave the country and are being strongly encouraged to fight against Russian forces.

One man was discovered in the boot of his wife's Lexus at a border checkpoint in Luzhanka on the Hungary-Ukraine border.

Another was found hiding among possessions in the boot of a Mitsubishi car.

The man had then tried to pay the border guards,

Another man jumped on a train and tried to cross the border without passing border control, the ministry said.

Sorry my message was for @ChangeNameagain2

I don’t think the state should ever coerce individuals into forced violent acts, male or female.

I don't think Putin should be able to invade one country after another and take more issue with that.

I'm going to contradict a lot here and say that noone should be forced to fight. For example, if someone invaded the uk is it right that i fight if:

1. I am a coward.
2. I am a pacifist.
3. I am not patriotic.
4. I'd rather escape to a peaceful country and have a decent shot at life than battle against an insurmountable enemy and most likely die.

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

Having said that they are all immensely brave whereas I'm a lazy coward!

It would be nice to give the choice and consider equality.

War is not nice its brutal.

@Jjjayfee

If it happened here would it not be fairer if men and women had to stay behind then?

Is this a wind-up or have you really not attempted to think about the two questions you have asked?

Honestly I would make it all men and woman who do not have children. I would also make it so those of limited benefit to society go to the front line firsts. So prisoners etc are used first, over a father with a good education and professional job as that who you need left to rebuild.

Interestingly both me and DH come from military families and none of them support national service

Also is the russian army mostly men? Juat wonder how it would play out if one army was mostly men and thr other 50/50.male/female

You obviously have not grasped how serious this is for Ukraine and the rest of the world. It's not the time for gender wars and if you can't see what's coming you're probably lucky. Grow up.