I don't think all men 18-60 should be forced to fight and not allowed to leave Ukraine. It should be the choice of individual men and women.

[Jjjayfee]

I just saw a young father in tears as he said goodbye to his wife and baby. He is not allowed to leave Ukraine, but has to stay and fight. I think it should be a choice of individual men and women.

I would want to fight in any way I could so think that if men have to stay women should too unless they have children who can be moved to safety. I know the roles for men and women would be different.

It was mentioned on the news tonight that some women get their children to safety and then go back in (I presume they leave their children with family in Poland etc.)

Two women were mentioned particularly - one works in an orphanage, there are 50 children there, she feels she cannot leave them. The other woman worked in power supply, she felt she needed to go back to try and keep things running.

They may not be fighting, but they still feel the need to be in Ukraine to serve their country and the people who depend on them doing their jobs.

As I understand it, lone fathers and men with 3 or more children can leave with their family. So it's not 'all men' who are prevented from leaving. They're not being forced to fight either are they? I think some are sheltering in subway stations and basements. Many women have also volunteered to stay and fight.

There's something somewhere about the actual experience of people in London during ww2 I think being and feeling more positive for those who stayed, children too, than for thpse that were evacuated, in spite of bombs being dropped around them.

@PlanetNormal
Seriously??

I would want my grandchildren safely away with their mothers. I've handled a gun occasionally so would stay and help where I could be useful. I think that's a natural desire

I've seen plenty of examples of women staying and fighting. I don't think it's the time to start criticising a country for being misogynist when they are fighting for their lives.

[quote karcar]@PlanetNormal
Seriously??[/quote]
No he’s not serious, he’s just taking the piss.

What jolly japes ! Mocking the people of Ukraine. So clever and amusing

Ideally it should be totally voluntary, but in the current situation I think that children should be evacuated with one parent of either sex, and fit people without children should be conscripted irrespective of their sex.

In WW2, British children in target areas were evacuated without their parents, and women were conscripted in some countries including UK and USSR. The USA was about to conscript women for the invasion of Japan, but the atomic bomb brought peace before it was enacted.

Nowadays, several countries have existing legislation for national service or to conscript women as well as men, but in some it is not currently in use or is restricted to volunteers, and in other cases to certain professions (such as medics). As more countries remove historic restrictions on women in combat roles, the conscription of women is growing.

I wouldnt fight politicians wars for them.
Its the fact that the population is willing to be told to do this that let's there be wars at all.
The politicians who cause them certainly aren't out there getting shot at. Why should anybody else.

If both men and women remain behind, who'll take care of children and the elderly.

We don't even have a decent system to tackle and punish rape and sexual crimes during peace, let alone during a war.

@montysma1

I wouldnt fight politicians wars for them. Its the fact that the population is willing to be told to do this that let's there be wars at all. The politicians who cause them certainly aren't out there getting shot at. Why should anybody else.

Well the Ukrainian president doesn't seem to be hiding away, and apparently there's been at least three attempts on his life already.

There's already human traffickers trying to lure Ukrainian women as well.

@montysma1 a significant proportion of Ukrainian politians are fighting. Their parliament also had an emergency meeting, they were definitely targets.

I did hear a Russian mother make the exact point you're making though!

I have to be honest, I'm in awe of the bravery of these people. But if this happened here, there isn't a hope in hell my husband or oldest son would be staying behind. I don't care how I would get them out. We were talking about it the other night and honestly I'd push them down the stairs, break a leg on each on them, anything, I just couldn't imagine fleeing with 3 kids, our foster daughter and leaving them behind. I had been wondering if some people are exempt eg my husband is a surgeon, so would he be allowed/needed to keep on working? Aware of how much of selfish coward this makes me!

There are more ways of fighting than going into actual battle, armed to the teeth and hurling grenades or whatever.

@ChangeNameagain2

I have to be honest, I'm in awe of the bravery of these people. But if this happened here, there isn't a hope in hell my husband or oldest son would be staying behind. I don't care how I would get them out. We were talking about it the other night and honestly I'd push them down the stairs, break a leg on each on them, anything, I just couldn't imagine fleeing with 3 kids, our foster daughter and leaving them behind. I had been wondering if some people are exempt eg my husband is a surgeon, so would he be allowed/needed to keep on working? Aware of how much of selfish coward this makes me!

I know what you mean but it’s your home and your long term future they’d be defending by staying. And it’s your children you’d be protecting by leaving (unless you had someone else to take them and could stay too.)

If your husband’s a surgeon he’d working as a doctor not fighting. I’m guessing he’d want to stay?

@Jjjayfee

If it happened here would it not be fairer if men and women had to stay behind then?

If men and women all stayed behind then child refugees would be on their own. It happened with evacuees in ww2 but it is a bit of pot luck; some were lucky with the families they stayed with and some weren’t. I imagine it would be scary from the children to be separated from both parents unless they absolutely had to.

Interestingly, on the news tonight it said many women were dropping the children off in neighbouring countries and going back to work at the power station etc to keep things running for those trapped

The Ukrainian men I know had every chance to leave (all very wealthy) but chose to stay in Kiev yo protect their country. It's like WWII - their homeland is under attack.

Whereas my uncle and cousins (boys in their 20-s) in Moscow want to flee in case Putin declares a state of emergency and forces my cousins into the army. No one wants to fight this war for Putin.

YABU inasmuch as we cannot pretend that sex differences are not real; that age differences are not real when it comes to on the ground combat.

We can smooth over them in civilised society because when we are civilised they don't matter so much. When we are not, the reality that young women are bearing / raising the children, that young men are generally best placed for physical fighting isn't sexism or ageism - it's just reality. Some nature, some socialisation.

It looks like a good many women are also fighting but this is a crisis, not a job fair. (There is also of course a question about the use of conscription in general.)