To think that capitalism is a load of old shite?

[malificent7]

Most of us are not in the top 1% . We work for those that are and work damn hard. In turn we spend most of our lives slaving away to line the pockets of fat cats.
Yes, the money we earn can buy us a better standard of living in some ways but in the past a lot of my money has gone on shit i don't really need in order to make myself feel better as advertising told me it would make me more beautiful, successful, glamorous or a better mum.
Also, it is run on fossil fuels which cause so much pollution, war etc.
And the modern workplace is mental...so stressful,competitive and target driven, so focussed on producing more shite for us to consume causing anxiety, depression, heart disease and repetitive strain injury. Even the " caring" professions are about making a profit nowadays. An increasing reliance on AI has added to our workload rather than giving us more leisure.
I'm not saying communism is the answer but capitalism is shite. Just having a rant really as feeling very trapoed by it all.

We have nothing remotely like true free market Capitalism anymore, which is actually a relatively fair and equitable system when functioning properly, for one thing it relies on workers having decent enough wages to afford a good standard of living so that the whole system of production and consumption is self supporting.

What we have is an economic system of Corporatism and Bankism backed up by a kleptocratic political system.

As is always the case, people in capitalist societies sit on their computers, bashing the keyboard against capitalism

As is always the case, the only people we hear from on capitalism are the ones at the top of the pile with computers, not the eight year olds scratching a living by picking litter in giant dumps in capitalist Djakarta and Nairobi.

@gingerhills

This single act had been the biggest hit for working people at the lower end of the pay scale.

I don't think that is the single act that had the biggest impact on the low paid. I think Thatcher selling off social housing and not replacing it, and not controlling the obscene rise in housing costs which private landlords who took over from councils, had to pass on to their tenants, is the biggest problem facing the low-waged. Blair too should have controlled property price rises.

An adult wage should be able to fund basic needs. Two adult wages should be able to comfortably fund basic needs for a family.

Hence why the subsidizing of low wages has been the biggest hit on peoples wages. You just repeated the original point.

By some accounts, capitalism killed upwards of 100 million people in the twentieth century: "The list includes certain death-tolls covering the two World Wars, colonial wars, anticommunist campaigns and repressions, ethnic conflicts, and victims of famines or malnutrition; bringing the incomplete total to 100 million deaths attributed to capitalism in the 20th century"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Livre_noir_du_capitalisme

Capitalism works fine where a fair market of effort and reward exist. Some people work all hours, take risks and become rich, some work less, take fewer risks and have a middling standard of living etc.

That disappeared somewhere around the middle of last century and now we have rampant globalisation where some companies have become so large that they unfairly influence the market to the detriment of everyone else.
Think any very large multinational and look closely at the numerous brands and smaller companies that they own.
They influence politicians and we end up with obvious unfairness like zero hours contracts and huge student debt.

But that's not capitalism.

[quote AuxArmesCitoyens]By some accounts, capitalism killed upwards of 100 million people in the twentieth century: "The list includes certain death-tolls covering the two World Wars, colonial wars, anticommunist campaigns and repressions, ethnic conflicts, and victims of famines or malnutrition; bringing the incomplete total to 100 million deaths attributed to capitalism in the 20th century"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Livre_noir_du_capitalisme[/quote]
That’s not bad then. Compared with how many deaths occurred due to communism in Russia and China alone. I’d say capitalism is still winning when it comes to the basic expectation of staying alive under any societal system.

www.wsj.com/amp/articles/100-years-of-communismand-100-million-dead-1510011810

Capitalism killed people in WW1 and WW2? How? Not from any reasonable knowledge of history.

To get rid of capitalism you'd need two things:

A benevolent leader to administer something fairer.

An end to fiat currency.

Without those two things capitalism is the only way we can have a functional society.

For socialism we'd need someone good to be at the top, which is likely not possible because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

For fiat currency to work we require a large proportion of people in constant debt so that new money is created.

@TizerorFizz

There has been a huge rise in the numbers of the middle class in this country. Millions of people have a stake in capitalism via wages and pensions. If you look at the last 100 years, there has been a huge improvement in living and working conditions for the majority.

That isn’t to say that some people fall off the bottom. I do believe grasping education is vital. Making sure you do better than your parents. Some people have chaotic lives. Some people prefer not to work much. Some people work hard for little return, but a directed economy rarely improves anything. We all have to take our chance in life and make sure we do.

Most of that rise came in the trentes glorieuses. The years that were covered by a functional NHS and welfare state, including housing, and recognition of the separate values of both education and training. Not to mention a functioning economy that hadn’t been sold out to the London financial market and globalist ideologies. It hasn’t been improving since the 1980s fpr most of us.

Communism and capitalism are not the only options there are others

The problem is that it's hard to come up with a better alternative.

No it's not. There are alternatives the problem is that those alternatives don't benefit those currently in power and it's hard for us ordinary people to get them out of power! I'm not talking within this country alone but across the world

I too would prefer a social democratic way with economic democracy very much part of that

I see a few people here have already been brainwashed into believing that it is somehow a binary choice - capitalism or communism. Exactly what those in charge with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo would like you to think.

Exactly

Exactly, all these keyboard warriors are socialists/communists.

Socialism and communism are not the same thing they haven't been closely related for well over a century or so!

Waiting for your genius ideas. Sorry if we missed them in your post.

There's actually no need for us to do so as others already have - they are easily googled if you cba! Which you clearly can't

https://amp.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/future-business-alternatives-capitalism

Is just one, there are others - make the effort to find and read up on them

Still more than you’ve contributed

doodledoop love your post at 2139 yesterday some countries are starting to ban planned/built in obsolescence

For the unaware this is where companies DELIBERATELY create products that won't last!

Phones and other IT are the obvious and worst affected but it also applies to white goods, hoovers, cars etc legislation helps to a degree eg in the uk there is legislation that certain goods must last x amount of time or they must be replaced free by the retailer (who in turn expects reimbursement by manufacturer) but at the moment that is usually 5 years which isn't long at all considering previously certain goods would last (perhaps with minor repairs/parts replacement) 10, 20, 25 years! And there are still too many loopholes for retailers and manufacturers.

So they design goods to ONLY last the length of time the legislation requires even though they COULD build them to last longer.

Tax loopholes need to be closed this is a huge issue especially when it comes to large companies like Amazon but also wealthy individuals

It's also more than likely that the people you mention are fleeing countries that western capitalism has had a big hand in fucking up for them

Yep they don't exist in a vacuum

Responsible capitalism with all services that help society run smoothly nationalised and efficiently run.

We used to have this to a degree, we moaned it wasn't perfect - nothing ever is - and pretty much everything was privatised - inc energy! And look where we are now!

It's basically a giant pyramid scheme

Yep

Societies throughout history have discovered again and again that in order to have any longevity they need to limit power and wealth at the top.

Definitely

RedToothbrush and others - even communism hasn't been properly enacted. Where it supposedly has been there has still been a hierarchy of and grasping of power and resources - just under the false umbrella of sharing resources equally. If there were a true system of communism there wouldn't even really be leaders certainly NOT the same leaders for many decades!

What we have seen is a bastardisation of original communist principles.

Unfortunately we'd likely never see communism proper on a large scale because humans are by nature greedy - for power more than wealth though the two mostly go hand in hand.

In a truly communist state the TEMPORARY leaders would have the same homes and resources as everyone else!

ParsleySageRosemary certainly in this country right now we have HUGE inequality between ceo/owner levels of income/assets and nmw levels of income/assets. I believe the largest gap in uk history and this has been encouraged and enabled by this govts policies

thisbackwithavengeance are you old enough to remember when the services you mentioned were nationalised? I am - just about - end the issues we had back then were as nothing compared to what we're dealing with now! Privatisation was the worst thing to happen to this country in most of the populations living memory.

Giant monopolies rule with the support of governments who they've bought.

Agree with this

The NHS for example would save huge amounts running services in house

Which labour are saying is one of the first things they would change. I was not a fan of new labour but even they would be better than this shower! At least they were relatively competent!!

Because of their headline socialist policy of subsidizing low pay. Tax credits were the worst thing for low paid.

This was new labour who at best were centre right Blair made no bones about his admiration of thatcher and Thatcherite policies. He was kept in check somewhat by people like Brown who were old school socialist Labourites. Tax credits were never a socialist policy they subsidise employers not employees

New labour definitely had faults but this current corrupt, blatantly lying, blatantly self serving shower of thick pigs snouts in the trough are FAR worse!

I don't think that is the single act that had the biggest impact on the low paid. I think Thatcher selling off social housing and not replacing it, and not controlling the obscene rise in housing costs which private landlords who took over from councils, had to pass on to their tenants, is the biggest problem facing the low-waged. Blair too should have controlled property price rises.

Totally agree except expecting Blair to correct it was wishful thinking.

The whole housing system is massively corrupt! People are prob bored hearing it from me but for those who perhaps don't yet know - look into just how many mps and their immediate families/partners are property developers and landlords etc and THEN look at how those mps vote on housing issues! They consistently vote against any proposed measures that will improve the quality of housing, reduce housing prices or even give tenants more rights just generally. They vote based on their own self interest and greed NOT as the majority of their constituents would wish them or expect them to (especially when they are labour mps!)

An adult wage should be able to fund basic needs. Two adult wages should be able to comfortably fund basic needs for a family.

100% Agree

I do believe grasping education is vital. Making sure you do better than your parents.

Not everyone CAN do this. I hold 2 degrees I worked full time from age 16 but I'm now unemployed and on benefits because I am disabled due to a car accident I was in.

Others don't have the academic ability, or have not been able to fully engage with education due to ill health. I have a friend who bless her thinks she is "stupid" because she didn't do well at school, she didn't do well because she had a chronic illness which meant a LOT of time spent in hospital, at times recovering from surgeries etc. Once you're an adult it's much harder to access and make the most of educational options - and this govt has been making this harder and harder!

Yants - this is the thing I don't understand about certain types of capitalists probably as you've said corporatists and bankists - because surely even from a self serving perspective they WANT a fit and healthy workforce to be productive?! They also surely don't want to be having to pay benefits to the likes of me who - with the right support and infrastructure which doesn't currently exist - COULD be working and NOT needing benefits

Redistribute land holdings

Doodledoop, can you enlarge on this?
Do you mean there should be a limit on how much land someone can own?
Would the limit be set by acreage or value of the property?
To whom would the land be redistributed?

That isn’t to say that some people fall off the bottom. I do believe grasping education is vital. Making sure you do better than your parents.

Perhaps you’ve missed some of the media talk demonstrating conclusively that doing better than your parents has not been happening for some time? Even for the middle classes. For the working and lower classes it hasn’t been happening for a lot longer - it has taken an awfully long time for the difficulties to spiral up the hierarchy to the attention of the kind of people who get into media.

I think it's the least worst way of doing things, but it's being done about as badly as it can be.

I think the balance has gone too crazy far in favour of the most powerful - although many would say that's a 'feature, not a bug' of capitalism. It should be possible for people to be socially mobile, but now we seem to have got to a stage where the human factor has been totally forgotten in the scramble for profit. And it just doesn't make sense - we have governments and low-paying businesses pushing people into such poverty, even when working, that they can't afford to live and they can't really contribute economically, which is totally dysfunctional.

Society and the economy doesn't need dozens more billionaires for a strong economy, we need millions more people being able to afford to live!

Also agree people just can't do as well as their parents these days.

Tiny violin alert:
DH and I grew up with parents who were able to by large homes while in their early 30s, with a small mortgage, and who could afford private education for the kids who wanted it.

DH and I took 10 years longer to be able to buy a family home, that costs x8 our combined income, and we'd never have been able to afford private education (not that I was bothered about this). It's already been a tad harder for us than for our parents albeit ins fairly superficial ways.... it will be harder yet by an order of magnitude for our kids, and we're still I think in about the top 5% of income nationally. Which goes to show how much richer then 1% must be!

Capitalism is a good system. Just most fail to remember that you, the consumer, are the ones in control. Everyone moans about Bill Gates and how much money he has, but types it on the internet on their IPhone.
Tesco in 2008 (or about then) were going to open something like 40 new stores, they ended up closing about 80, because during the recession people started to shop at Lidl and Aldi.
People complain about "The rich" but rhe overwhelming vast majority are there because the consumer bought the products that put them there.
Buy elsewhere, if everyone stopped using Amazon, Jeff would be skint.

RedToothbrush and others - even communism hasn't been properly enacted

Graphista - where has communism been properly enacted?

@Graphista

Communism and capitalism are not the only options there are others

The problem is that it's hard to come up with a better alternative.

No it's not. There are alternatives the problem is that those alternatives don't benefit those currently in power and it's hard for us ordinary people to get them out of power! I'm not talking within this country alone but across the world

I too would prefer a social democratic way with economic democracy very much part of that

I see a few people here have already been brainwashed into believing that it is somehow a binary choice - capitalism or communism. Exactly what those in charge with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo would like you to think.

Exactly

Exactly, all these keyboard warriors are socialists/communists.

Socialism and communism are not the same thing they haven't been closely related for well over a century or so!

Waiting for your genius ideas. Sorry if we missed them in your post.

There's actually no need for us to do so as others already have - they are easily googled if you cba! Which you clearly can't

[[https://amp.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/future-business-alternatives-capitalism]]

Is just one, there are others - make the effort to find and read up on them

Still more than you’ve contributed

doodledoop love your post at 2139 yesterday some countries are starting to ban planned/built in obsolescence

For the unaware this is where companies DELIBERATELY create products that won't last!

Phones and other IT are the obvious and worst affected but it also applies to white goods, hoovers, cars etc legislation helps to a degree eg in the uk there is legislation that certain goods must last x amount of time or they must be replaced free by the retailer (who in turn expects reimbursement by manufacturer) but at the moment that is usually 5 years which isn't long at all considering previously certain goods would last (perhaps with minor repairs/parts replacement) 10, 20, 25 years! And there are still too many loopholes for retailers and manufacturers.

So they design goods to ONLY last the length of time the legislation requires even though they COULD build them to last longer.

Tax loopholes need to be closed this is a huge issue especially when it comes to large companies like Amazon but also wealthy individuals

It's also more than likely that the people you mention are fleeing countries that western capitalism has had a big hand in fucking up for them

Yep they don't exist in a vacuum

Responsible capitalism with all services that help society run smoothly nationalised and efficiently run.

We used to have this to a degree, we moaned it wasn't perfect - nothing ever is - and pretty much everything was privatised - inc energy! And look where we are now!

It's basically a giant pyramid scheme

Yep

Societies throughout history have discovered again and again that in order to have any longevity they need to limit power and wealth at the top.

Definitely

RedToothbrush and others - even communism hasn't been properly enacted. Where it supposedly has been there has still been a hierarchy of and grasping of power and resources - just under the false umbrella of sharing resources equally. If there were a true system of communism there wouldn't even really be leaders certainly NOT the same leaders for many decades!

What we have seen is a bastardisation of original communist principles.

Unfortunately we'd likely never see communism proper on a large scale because humans are by nature greedy - for power more than wealth though the two mostly go hand in hand.

In a truly communist state the TEMPORARY leaders would have the same homes and resources as everyone else!

ParsleySageRosemary certainly in this country right now we have HUGE inequality between ceo/owner levels of income/assets and nmw levels of income/assets. I believe the largest gap in uk history and this has been encouraged and enabled by this govts policies

thisbackwithavengeance are you old enough to remember when the services you mentioned were nationalised? I am - just about - end the issues we had back then were as nothing compared to what we're dealing with now! Privatisation was the worst thing to happen to this country in most of the populations living memory.

Giant monopolies rule with the support of governments who they've bought.

Agree with this

The NHS for example would save huge amounts running services in house

Which labour are saying is one of the first things they would change. I was not a fan of new labour but even they would be better than this shower! At least they were relatively competent!!

Because of their headline socialist policy of subsidizing low pay. Tax credits were the worst thing for low paid.

This was new labour who at best were centre right Blair made no bones about his admiration of thatcher and Thatcherite policies. He was kept in check somewhat by people like Brown who were old school socialist Labourites. Tax credits were never a socialist policy they subsidise employers not employees

New labour definitely had faults but this current corrupt, blatantly lying, blatantly self serving shower of thick pigs snouts in the trough are FAR worse!

I don't think that is the single act that had the biggest impact on the low paid. I think Thatcher selling off social housing and not replacing it, and not controlling the obscene rise in housing costs which private landlords who took over from councils, had to pass on to their tenants, is the biggest problem facing the low-waged. Blair too should have controlled property price rises.

Totally agree except expecting Blair to correct it was wishful thinking.

The whole housing system is massively corrupt! People are prob bored hearing it from me but for those who perhaps don't yet know - look into just how many mps and their immediate families/partners are property developers and landlords etc and THEN look at how those mps vote on housing issues! They consistently vote against any proposed measures that will improve the quality of housing, reduce housing prices or even give tenants more rights just generally. They vote based on their own self interest and greed NOT as the majority of their constituents would wish them or expect them to (especially when they are labour mps!)

An adult wage should be able to fund basic needs. Two adult wages should be able to comfortably fund basic needs for a family.

100% Agree

I do believe grasping education is vital. Making sure you do better than your parents.

Not everyone CAN do this. I hold 2 degrees I worked full time from age 16 but I'm now unemployed and on benefits because I am disabled due to a car accident I was in.

Others don't have the academic ability, or have not been able to fully engage with education due to ill health. I have a friend who bless her thinks she is "stupid" because she didn't do well at school, she didn't do well because she had a chronic illness which meant a LOT of time spent in hospital, at times recovering from surgeries etc. Once you're an adult it's much harder to access and make the most of educational options - and this govt has been making this harder and harder!

Yants - this is the thing I don't understand about certain types of capitalists probably as you've said corporatists and bankists - because surely even from a self serving perspective they WANT a fit and healthy workforce to be productive?! They also surely don't want to be having to pay benefits to the likes of me who - with the right support and infrastructure which doesn't currently exist - COULD be working and NOT needing benefits

This is a brilliant post @Graphista I know it's long but it's so good, it's well worth reposting.

@NukesOfHazard

If my husband fucks up his job, over 2000 people directly lose their livelihoods.

This is why some get paid more than others

I think the onus should be on stamping out cronyism and corruption in the government.

This is far more damaging and leads to far more inequality than salary differentials which are generally set by market forces .

If a hospital cleaner or patient transport driver fucks up their job, potentially many people die. Yet these jobs frequently don't pay enough to meet spiralling wildly out of control housing and living costs.

There isn't necessarily a need for everyone to be paid an equal amount.

But what is necessary is everybody (including those too ill or disabled or old to work) have enough to live on - for essentials. Plus at least some treats (because life needs respite from the grind and health is holistic - mental health is as important as physical).

Agree with you about the corruption.

@Brieandcamembert

The problem is, the more you take from successful people, the less motivation there is to be successful and then where does society go?

Money isn't the only motivator. All the below are too.

• Professional or intellectual curiosity.

• Creativity

• Competitiveness (eg. why do people do things like Park Run?)

• Sense of purpose and achievement

• Mutual or societal benefit

• Mental or physical exercise.

• Even, for some people, altruism.

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

It’s not just exploitative capitalism or soviet style communism as the only absolute ways of organising society. There are middle grounds.

I’d prefer a more social democratic approach where all essential services are nationalised - healthcare, education, energy, water, transport, communications - all available at subsidised cost from the state with private alternatives in some cases, but the focus being on good quality service not shareholder returns.

I’d like the UK to move away from military alliances like NATO and AUKUS etc and focus on good trading relationships instead. Can we be Sweden or Switzerland or something please ?

I am with you on the social democratic model but totally not with you on the trading relationships providing peace.

You get that is what Germany was trying to do with Russia, right? They thought that Russia being brought into close trading ties would create a mutual relationship and keep peace. And look how that turned out.

The lesson from Ukraine is that the countries still need, and will always need, strong military defences. Ukraine would not be where it is now if it were in NATO. Or if it had not given up its nuclear weapons in return for a protection agreement with the USA, UK and Russia.... The other lesson there is ' Trust No-one'

It worked between France and Germany. Two countries that are two halves of one empire, so closely related that apparently you can’t tell French and German DNA apart. Two countries that are neighbours.

It’s a stretch to think, from that, that it could work between distant regions of the world. There comes a point where economies of scale become unviable on the human scale. Exactly where is the key unsolved problem, but it hasn’t even been considered valid for a long time as the greed of elites has been unleashed.

I think capitalism is not only driving climate change, it's fundamentally incapable of solving it. I think we are going to be forced into a change at some point.

I think capitalism is not only driving climate change, it's fundamentally incapable of solving it. I think we are going to be forced into a change at some point.

100%. Capitalism requires perpetual growth. Perpetual growth in a closed system with finite resources isn't possible and the longer we try to keep it going the more damage to the system we will do. At some point one of three things will happen.

1. We realise we can't continue with the current model and will figure out a new one that is sustainable. I believe this is what we are trying to do with the just transition to a net zero society but the take-up and action is so lacking that it's almost pointless.

2. There will be a total environmental catastrophe and the system will collapse. If capitalism is still the dominant economic system in 2050, current trends suggest our planetary ecosystems will be, at best, on the brink of collapse.

3. We will run out of the resources required to feed the system and it will collapse, which is less likely because it would require us to navigate scenario 2.

Out of those no.2 is the most likely scenario to be realised which, at best, will set humanity back 1000s of years with the death of billions and at worst make it impossible for humanity as a species to survive.

@Graphista

Communism and capitalism are not the only options there are others

The problem is that it's hard to come up with a better alternative.

No it's not. There are alternatives the problem is that those alternatives don't benefit those currently in power and it's hard for us ordinary people to get them out of power! I'm not talking within this country alone but across the world

I too would prefer a social democratic way with economic democracy very much part of that

I see a few people here have already been brainwashed into believing that it is somehow a binary choice - capitalism or communism. Exactly what those in charge with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo would like you to think.

Exactly

Exactly, all these keyboard warriors are socialists/communists.

Socialism and communism are not the same thing they haven't been closely related for well over a century or so!

Waiting for your genius ideas. Sorry if we missed them in your post.

There's actually no need for us to do so as others already have - they are easily googled if you cba! Which you clearly can't

[[https://amp.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/future-business-alternatives-capitalism]]

Is just one, there are others - make the effort to find and read up on them

Still more than you’ve contributed

doodledoop love your post at 2139 yesterday some countries are starting to ban planned/built in obsolescence

For the unaware this is where companies DELIBERATELY create products that won't last!

Phones and other IT are the obvious and worst affected but it also applies to white goods, hoovers, cars etc legislation helps to a degree eg in the uk there is legislation that certain goods must last x amount of time or they must be replaced free by the retailer (who in turn expects reimbursement by manufacturer) but at the moment that is usually 5 years which isn't long at all considering previously certain goods would last (perhaps with minor repairs/parts replacement) 10, 20, 25 years! And there are still too many loopholes for retailers and manufacturers.

So they design goods to ONLY last the length of time the legislation requires even though they COULD build them to last longer.

Tax loopholes need to be closed this is a huge issue especially when it comes to large companies like Amazon but also wealthy individuals

It's also more than likely that the people you mention are fleeing countries that western capitalism has had a big hand in fucking up for them

Yep they don't exist in a vacuum

Responsible capitalism with all services that help society run smoothly nationalised and efficiently run.

We used to have this to a degree, we moaned it wasn't perfect - nothing ever is - and pretty much everything was privatised - inc energy! And look where we are now!

It's basically a giant pyramid scheme

Yep

Societies throughout history have discovered again and again that in order to have any longevity they need to limit power and wealth at the top.

Definitely

RedToothbrush and others - even communism hasn't been properly enacted. Where it supposedly has been there has still been a hierarchy of and grasping of power and resources - just under the false umbrella of sharing resources equally. If there were a true system of communism there wouldn't even really be leaders certainly NOT the same leaders for many decades!

What we have seen is a bastardisation of original communist principles.

Unfortunately we'd likely never see communism proper on a large scale because humans are by nature greedy - for power more than wealth though the two mostly go hand in hand.

In a truly communist state the TEMPORARY leaders would have the same homes and resources as everyone else!

ParsleySageRosemary certainly in this country right now we have HUGE inequality between ceo/owner levels of income/assets and nmw levels of income/assets. I believe the largest gap in uk history and this has been encouraged and enabled by this govts policies

thisbackwithavengeance are you old enough to remember when the services you mentioned were nationalised? I am - just about - end the issues we had back then were as nothing compared to what we're dealing with now! Privatisation was the worst thing to happen to this country in most of the populations living memory.

Giant monopolies rule with the support of governments who they've bought.

Agree with this

The NHS for example would save huge amounts running services in house

Which labour are saying is one of the first things they would change. I was not a fan of new labour but even they would be better than this shower! At least they were relatively competent!!

Because of their headline socialist policy of subsidizing low pay. Tax credits were the worst thing for low paid.

This was new labour who at best were centre right Blair made no bones about his admiration of thatcher and Thatcherite policies. He was kept in check somewhat by people like Brown who were old school socialist Labourites. Tax credits were never a socialist policy they subsidise employers not employees

New labour definitely had faults but this current corrupt, blatantly lying, blatantly self serving shower of thick pigs snouts in the trough are FAR worse!

I don't think that is the single act that had the biggest impact on the low paid. I think Thatcher selling off social housing and not replacing it, and not controlling the obscene rise in housing costs which private landlords who took over from councils, had to pass on to their tenants, is the biggest problem facing the low-waged. Blair too should have controlled property price rises.

Totally agree except expecting Blair to correct it was wishful thinking.

The whole housing system is massively corrupt! People are prob bored hearing it from me but for those who perhaps don't yet know - look into just how many mps and their immediate families/partners are property developers and landlords etc and THEN look at how those mps vote on housing issues! They consistently vote against any proposed measures that will improve the quality of housing, reduce housing prices or even give tenants more rights just generally. They vote based on their own self interest and greed NOT as the majority of their constituents would wish them or expect them to (especially when they are labour mps!)

An adult wage should be able to fund basic needs. Two adult wages should be able to comfortably fund basic needs for a family.

100% Agree

I do believe grasping education is vital. Making sure you do better than your parents.

Not everyone CAN do this. I hold 2 degrees I worked full time from age 16 but I'm now unemployed and on benefits because I am disabled due to a car accident I was in.

Others don't have the academic ability, or have not been able to fully engage with education due to ill health. I have a friend who bless her thinks she is "stupid" because she didn't do well at school, she didn't do well because she had a chronic illness which meant a LOT of time spent in hospital, at times recovering from surgeries etc. Once you're an adult it's much harder to access and make the most of educational options - and this govt has been making this harder and harder!

Yants - this is the thing I don't understand about certain types of capitalists probably as you've said corporatists and bankists - because surely even from a self serving perspective they WANT a fit and healthy workforce to be productive?! They also surely don't want to be having to pay benefits to the likes of me who - with the right support and infrastructure which doesn't currently exist - COULD be working and NOT needing benefits

Nice post. It seems you have more patience for those who ask for alternatives not expecting to get any and then, when you point them to places where they can find them, they refuse to look but then somehow find a way to imply that you’re the one that’s lazy.

The tax credits thing is particularly appalling. Using public funds to subsidise private companies while pretending you are looking after the poorest sections of society. Just goes to show that it’s not the tories that are the real problem, it’s the whole system.

Capitalism doesn't have to be all about consumption. The Nordic countries seem to have a good blend?