To think that capitalism is a load of old shite?

[malificent7]

Most of us are not in the top 1% . We work for those that are and work damn hard. In turn we spend most of our lives slaving away to line the pockets of fat cats.
Yes, the money we earn can buy us a better standard of living in some ways but in the past a lot of my money has gone on shit i don't really need in order to make myself feel better as advertising told me it would make me more beautiful, successful, glamorous or a better mum.
Also, it is run on fossil fuels which cause so much pollution, war etc.
And the modern workplace is mental...so stressful,competitive and target driven, so focussed on producing more shite for us to consume causing anxiety, depression, heart disease and repetitive strain injury. Even the " caring" professions are about making a profit nowadays. An increasing reliance on AI has added to our workload rather than giving us more leisure.
I'm not saying communism is the answer but capitalism is shite. Just having a rant really as feeling very trapoed by it all.

I don't begrudge the higher earners in life. I wouldn't take the stress they deal with in exchange for money. I'm much happier in my average 9-5. I would like the see the government crack down on corporation tax from giants like Amazon though.

The problem is, the more you take from successful people, the less motivation there is to be successful and then where does society go?

I think a lot of successful people see the benefit in a more balanced society. It's more safer to live in for one, who wants higher crime & civil disorder?

Suits me 🤷‍♀️

@malificent7

I suppose it works on the premise that if you have an entrepreneurial spirit you can work hard and " better yourself". Fine...but the owners of the old factories etc did so relying on the labour of others. What is wrong with socialism as opposed to communism?

Do you follow world events. Venezuela? And now cue all the predictable comments about how the US caused Venezuela to fail. No socialism caused Venezuelans to fail.

@ParsleySageRosemary

^ and there are entire swathes of this country where there is no hope. Where people can barely afford to eat, let alone travel to the next town, let alone get out of the region. I am not particularly prey to consumerism myself, but the fact is youngsters are deliberately sold this crap as the only thing that matters to maintain social status in these areas, rather than being given affordable and real routes out through training and work. All to enable the rich to get richer. The only option females are sold is being fashion dolls and whores: the only real option for the boys is fighting and drugs.

It’s no good just saying vote labour either. It was New Labour that impoverished working people last time and in their time that intergenerational inequality was started. We need the super rich to give the wealth back, to stop pretending all the costs of this country need to be balanced only by those who do the work and ignoring those parasites creaming off at the top: and Keir’s new new labour will only betray us again.

It’s absolutely labour than started this downward spiral of low living standards. Because of their headline socialist policy of subsidizing low pay. Tax credits were the worst thing for low paid. By subsidizing low pay, labour created crony capitalism i.e socialism. Rather than letting wages keep up with the cost of living they allowed the system to be flooded with cheap migrant labour and the subsidized employers to even pay those very low wages. This single act had been the biggest hit for working people at the lower end of the pay scale. Any employer who cannot afford to pay its people, should not be in business. Yet the taxpayer has been propping up this system of low pay and low growth which helps no one. This, folks, is what socialism looks like. But imagine it a 100 times worse.

@Brieandcamembert

The problem is, the more you take from successful people, the less motivation there is to be successful and then where does society go?

As demonstrated by London becoming the second largest French city outside France when the socialist idiot Francoise Holland was in power. He did so much damage to the French public finances while those Rich people were paying tax in London.

Why do people assume the only alternative to the status quo is communism?

That's just capitalist propaganda.

The wealthy don't use PAYE. They class themselves as self employed/ businesses and pay (minimal) tax as a limited company. The UK is the easiest country in the world to avoid paying tax.

The least wealthy pay the highest proportion in tax.

@felulageller

Why do people assume the only alternative to the status quo is communism?

That's just capitalist propaganda.

The wealthy don't use PAYE. They class themselves as self employed/ businesses and pay (minimal) tax as a limited company. The UK is the easiest country in the world to avoid paying tax.

The least wealthy pay the highest proportion in tax.

The least wealthy are also net takers from the system. Even on PAYE, only people earning more than around £35k are net contributors. So really what you are arguing for less taxation, not more. It’s pointless to have low paid people pay tax, then pay inefficient, largely wasteful government organizations recycle that tax and give it back to the low paid. That’s the issue here.

Rubbish. High earners who work for companies pay income tax. CEOs are employed. In fact higher earners pay more tax than all the standard tax payers. They are the ones who fund the most services. Of course high earners are not all self employed or company owners.

Regarding socialist states: they still have to big energy in a world market. The form of government is immaterial. The costs are not defined by governments. They can subsidise the cost to the consumer of course but tax payers will find its yet another call on their taxes. We need to have more high earners to afford this, not less.

I’d argue perhaps the Cayman Islands are the easiest place not to pay tax. People always bang on about tax evasion but it is incredibly difficult to do, and tax avoidance (such as paying in to an ISA or pension) is legal.
The OECD has also published recent guidelines about making large corporates pay minimum taxes - BEPS 1 and 2. The UK are set to adopt this.
Companies make money, and the shareholders get returns, guess who the biggest investors are? Your pension scheme that will support you in retirement so you can retire.
What happens with a wealth tax when someone can’t afford to pay? Do they have their home sold out from under them?
There is so much waste in our system, we should tackle this first because then we actually know what we’ve got. Look to the economic history of Russia, Venezuela, Cuba and Japan, we really don’t have it so bad even if things could be better.

@NukesOfHazard

If my husband fucks up his job, over 2000 people directly lose their livelihoods.

This is why some get paid more than others

I think the onus should be on stamping out cronyism and corruption in the government.

This is far more damaging and leads to far more inequality than salary differentials which are generally set by market forces .

When you consider that Putin is worth an estimated $40bn, you realise that our lot aren't so bad by comparison.

Not that we shouldn't aim for better of course.

@Fernandina

I don't think Communism is all it's cracked up to be either.

It’s not one or the other.

@malificent7

Most of us are not in the top 1% . We work for those that are and work damn hard. In turn we spend most of our lives slaving away to line the pockets of fat cats. Yes, the money we earn can buy us a better standard of living in some ways but in the past a lot of my money has gone on shit i don't really need in order to make myself feel better as advertising told me it would make me more beautiful, successful, glamorous or a better mum. Also, it is run on fossil fuels which cause so much pollution, war etc. And the modern workplace is mental...so stressful,competitive and target driven, so focussed on producing more shite for us to consume causing anxiety, depression, heart disease and repetitive strain injury. Even the " caring" professions are about making a profit nowadays. An increasing reliance on AI has added to our workload rather than giving us more leisure. I'm not saying communism is the answer but capitalism is shite. Just having a rant really as feeling very trapoed by it all.

These are the halycon days of LSC. You ain't seen nothing yet.

@NukesOfHazard

If your husband messing up results in 2000 losing heir jobs

Then that company is appallingly regulated and appalling processes in place.

Good morning Karl. Still working on your thesis? I think your title may require a bit of adjustment if you want your thoughts to be taken seriously.

@TizerorFizz

Rubbish. High earners who work for companies pay income tax. CEOs are employed. In fact higher earners pay more tax than all the standard tax payers. They are the ones who fund the most services. Of course high earners are not all self employed or company owners.

Regarding socialist states: they still have to big energy in a world market. The form of government is immaterial. The costs are not defined by governments. They can subsidise the cost to the consumer of course but tax payers will find its yet another call on their taxes. We need to have more high earners to afford this, not less.

Many CEOs are "paid" in shares, dividends, etc that are not taxable so although some of their earnings are PAYE, a significant chunk isn't.

Most employers aren't fat cats though are they? I'm an employee of a firm of about 50 employees. My bosses have endless ghastly decisions to make and are the last to leave the building every night. I'm very happy to be salaried and for my employers to enjoy the profits, because they've never expected me to suffer the losses either.

Many CEOs have published salaries and shares! They receive substantial pay and it’s taxed. The idea that’s it’s mainly shared is ludicrous. Also they go down in value as well as up. Do shares might be worth £0. You cannot pay bills with shares.

And you might also pay CGT if you sell them.

This single act had been the biggest hit for working people at the lower end of the pay scale.

I don't think that is the single act that had the biggest impact on the low paid. I think Thatcher selling off social housing and not replacing it, and not controlling the obscene rise in housing costs which private landlords who took over from councils, had to pass on to their tenants, is the biggest problem facing the low-waged. Blair too should have controlled property price rises.

An adult wage should be able to fund basic needs. Two adult wages should be able to comfortably fund basic needs for a family.

@malificent7, your comments seem more suited to materialism and consumerism than capitalism and communism.
Advertising is hard for some people to ignor.

@malificent7

Most of us are not in the top 1% . We work for those that are and work damn hard. In turn we spend most of our lives slaving away to line the pockets of fat cats. Yes, the money we earn can buy us a better standard of living in some ways but in the past a lot of my money has gone on shit i don't really need in order to make myself feel better as advertising told me it would make me more beautiful, successful, glamorous or a better mum. Also, it is run on fossil fuels which cause so much pollution, war etc. And the modern workplace is mental...so stressful,competitive and target driven, so focussed on producing more shite for us to consume causing anxiety, depression, heart disease and repetitive strain injury. Even the " caring" professions are about making a profit nowadays. An increasing reliance on AI has added to our workload rather than giving us more leisure. I'm not saying communism is the answer but capitalism is shite. Just having a rant really as feeling very trapoed by it all.

The problem with capitalism in a nutshell:

r (returns on capital) > g (Labour (wage growth))

Over time, it is basically guaranteed that capital and wealth will accummulate in fewer and fewer hands under capitalism.

The only way to slow this down is war (destroys wealth) or taxes (redistributes wealth).

We will always have inequality and concentration of wealth in a capitalist society, but you can take steps via taxes to minimise this (Norway is a good example of this) problem so that wealth is more evenly distributed, and society healthier in the aggregate.

@crossstitchingnana

I agree OP. Also, hearing things like the richest got richer in the pandemic and the poor got poorer. How's that fair? And don't get me started on those that can't afford their energy bills but Shell can make 20bn profit.

Shell isn't a person. It is owned by thousands and most people's pensions are probably invested in it shareholders and therefore benefit from the profits/increase in value over time.

Everytime I see people compare individual incomes to those of companies I feel frustrated at the complete lack of understanding.

There has been a huge rise in the numbers of the middle class in this country. Millions of people have a stake in capitalism via wages and pensions. If you look at the last 100 years, there has been a huge improvement in living and working conditions for the majority.

That isn’t to say that some people fall off the bottom. I do believe grasping education is vital. Making sure you do better than your parents. Some people have chaotic lives. Some people prefer not to work much. Some people work hard for little return, but a directed economy rarely improves anything. We all have to take our chance in life and make sure we do.