To think that capitalism is a load of old shite?

[malificent7]

Most of us are not in the top 1% . We work for those that are and work damn hard. In turn we spend most of our lives slaving away to line the pockets of fat cats.
Yes, the money we earn can buy us a better standard of living in some ways but in the past a lot of my money has gone on shit i don't really need in order to make myself feel better as advertising told me it would make me more beautiful, successful, glamorous or a better mum.
Also, it is run on fossil fuels which cause so much pollution, war etc.
And the modern workplace is mental...so stressful,competitive and target driven, so focussed on producing more shite for us to consume causing anxiety, depression, heart disease and repetitive strain injury. Even the " caring" professions are about making a profit nowadays. An increasing reliance on AI has added to our workload rather than giving us more leisure.
I'm not saying communism is the answer but capitalism is shite. Just having a rant really as feeling very trapoed by it all.

I'm not sure what alternative there is however the current system isn't working. Too much inflation of assets & not enough tax on them with too much income tax so inequality is growing.

Also need to invest far more

So now let’s hear some of yours then.

What a fabulous discussion. Of course, astrology has been predicting the fall of the old institutions for a long time as we move into the age of Aquarius, so remaining status quo isn't an option now. Somewhere in the middle yes, with an eye on consumerism and the planet, and for me anyway, I'd like to see the leaders of all the industries lead in those areas. I was queuing to pay for petrol the other day, looking at the rows and rows of sugar products. Put the health workers and gardeners in charge of food and that would go. I'd like to see more of that sort of thing.

Anyone working PAYE pays away 50% or their income

I'd argue the rich aren't on PAYE

I've just come to dispute the 'top 1% pay 28% of tax fact. 28% of income tax is paid by top 1% of earners. So a) other taxes VAT especially fall disproprtionately on poorer people and b) the seriously wealthy do not rely on income.. they rely on dividends, shares, wealth etc. not subject to income tax.

Tax that. Redistribute land holdings. prevent subsidies (and gov. contracts) going to the already wealthy.

And yes promote community, common goods and common holdings.

Ban built in obsolence.

"Using anonymised data from personal tax returns, we show that in 2015-16 the average rate of tax paid by people who received one million pounds in taxable income and gains was just 35 per cent: the same as someone earning £100,000. But one in four of these paid 45 per cent – close to the top rate – whilst another quarter paid less than 30 per cent overall. One in ten paid just 11 per cent—the same as someone earning £15,000. "

@BobbyeinArkansas

Most high earners pay 45% in tax on top of NI. Not talking about super rich obviously. But “tax the rich” implies wealthy people don’t pay tax. Anyone working PAYE pays away 50% or their income. So aren’t they paying tax already?

The rich are not PAYE though. Depends on your definition but to me its anyone with a 7 figure or above income and they have many ways not to pay tax. I don't use the term earn either as the level of income for some people is obscene and is most definitely not earned.

Still not sharing your ideas then?

So I shared some ideas (not mine admittedly, but from people far more able to communicate them). I'd still be interested to hear yours, or do you really believe that this is the best possible system in the best possible of worlds?

As is always the case, people in capitalist societies sit on their computers, bashing the keyboard against capitalism, while those living in alternative systems are literally dying to cross borders to live in capitalist societies. But I’m sure the irony is lost on the former.

I don't think anyone is saying there aren't worse systems than current day capitalism - just that it is still quite shit for lots of people and it is possible to think and work towards one that might be better. It's also more than likely that the people you mention are fleeing countries that western capitalism has had a big hand in fucking up for them - proper irony for you there.

@MongoOnlyPawnInGameOfLife

Still not sharing your ideas then?

So I shared some ideas (not mine admittedly, but from people far more able to communicate them). I'd still be interested to hear yours, or do you really believe that this is the best possible system in the best possible of worlds?

As is always the case, people in capitalist societies sit on their computers, bashing the keyboard against capitalism, while those living in alternative systems are literally dying to cross borders to live in capitalist societies. But I’m sure the irony is lost on the former.

I don't think anyone is saying there aren't worse systems than current day capitalism - just that it is still quite shit for lots of people and it is possible to think and work towards one that might be better. It's also more than likely that the people you mention are fleeing countries that western capitalism has had a big hand in fucking up for them - proper irony for you there.

Unless I missed it, you haven't shared any ideas. You've linked to a couple of books.

Perhaps you could describe a few ideas from them. That's what I understand "sharing ideas" to be.

Discussion threads like this usually have a shelf life of a couple of days before they sink. I think it's very unlikely that anybody is going to pay for these books (assuming they aren't given away free) and read them in that time.

What kind of alternatives do they have?

@theresAtablet4thatNow

No-one is forced to buy something because of advertising. If you waste your money on crap you don't need, that's your own choice, and you might as well take responsibility for it.

Capitalism isn't perfect, but I've yet to see a model that looks better, or even as good.

This.

Exercising a little self-control and not buying rubbish, actually isnt that hard.

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

It’s not just exploitative capitalism or soviet style communism as the only absolute ways of organising society. There are middle grounds.

I’d prefer a more social democratic approach where all essential services are nationalised - healthcare, education, energy, water, transport, communications - all available at subsidised cost from the state with private alternatives in some cases, but the focus being on good quality service not shareholder returns.

I’d like the UK to move away from military alliances like NATO and AUKUS etc and focus on good trading relationships instead. Can we be Sweden or Switzerland or something please ?

I'd like this too. Exactly this. Moderation. Responsible capitalism with all services that help society run smoothly nationalised and efficiently run. It doesn't have to be sheer greed or Communism. There are plenty of strong alternatives in the middle.

@MongoOnlyPawnInGameOfLife

I see a few people here have already been brainwashed into believing that it is somehow a binary choice - capitalism or communism. Exactly what those in charge with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo would like you to think.

And those espousing the opposite ideology

We’ve actually tipped far too far into neoliberalism and that’s why we are fucked.

Well done Reagan and Thatcher 👏🤨

As is always the case, people in capitalist societies sit on their computers, bashing the keyboard against capitalism, while those living in alternative systems are literally dying to cross borders to live in capitalist societies. But I’m sure the irony is lost on the former

The problem with capitalism as it stands is that once you have wealth (or capital), then unless you fuck up, you can hand it down to generations and there’s no “reset” to ensure that everyone in the future can truly have an equal chance to succeed.

It’s that ingrained accumulation of wealth over the generations that slowly tips the balance to the 1%.

We need better taxation to tackle that problem. Inheritance tax, wealth tax. Then it gets redistributed and people can have the chance to succeed.

It's basically a giant pyramid scheme that only works if we consume more and more to keep increasing productivity, in a world with finite resources. Without checks to redistribute wealth and cap the constant need for more and more money, most of which never does 'trickle down' we're bound to be fucked in time. It's starting to look like sooner rather than later.

I agree OP. Capitalism sucks. There has to be a better way than this.
I'm done with it and am beginning to question why I'm fighting so hard to keep going.

I've just lost my home because someone has offered the landlord more money than I can afford to pay for it.
I'm done with being a disposable porn in the rich mans game.

It's a matter of extremes of greed, and (not) sharing the wealth. Inequality is massive in the UK now and there is no excuse for it. Societies throughout history have discovered again and again that in order to have any longevity they need to limit power and wealth at the top.

The issue with a centralised government controlled system of all businesses and industry ect, is that you would only need a set amount of workers.

So what then do you do with the rest of the population ?

With capitalism, everyone or most people are working and are after a slice of the pie, so to speak.

It seems and I'll admit I need more research and analysis to support my perspectives,

I'm with gingerhills and brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Btw there are alternatives to Communism or Capitalism.

Manorialism, and Feudalism.

Whether anyone would want those alternatives is another matter, but they do exist (and like all systems have pros and cons).

@ParsleySageRosemary

It's a matter of extremes of greed, and (not) sharing the wealth. Inequality is massive in the UK now and there is no excuse for it. Societies throughout history have discovered again and again that in order to have any longevity they need to limit power and wealth at the top.

Yes it's all about balance. And a social contract.

@ParsleySageRosemary

It's a matter of extremes of greed, and (not) sharing the wealth. Inequality is massive in the UK now and there is no excuse for it. Societies throughout history have discovered again and again that in order to have any longevity they need to limit power and wealth at the top.

The problem with redistribution is that after a while it just goes round in cycles, you'll get some people that save, some invest, and some spend, so even if everyone has e.g. 1 million each, after a while you would end up with similar situations.

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

It’s not just exploitative capitalism or soviet style communism as the only absolute ways of organising society. There are middle grounds.

I’d prefer a more social democratic approach where all essential services are nationalised - healthcare, education, energy, water, transport, communications - all available at subsidised cost from the state with private alternatives in some cases, but the focus being on good quality service not shareholder returns.

I’d like the UK to move away from military alliances like NATO and AUKUS etc and focus on good trading relationships instead. Can we be Sweden or Switzerland or something please ?

When I were a lass And this were all fields

We used to call that the mixed economy.

I liked that.

Unless I missed it, you haven't shared any ideas. You've linked to a couple of books.

Still more than you’ve contributed. I’d even take a link to a book if you have one.

I’m sure you can find the Amazon page for the ones I mentioned, or reviews elsewhere, which would give you a fair idea where they are coming from. I suspect you don’t want to entertain the idea that there are alternatives worth looking at though, because you seem quite comfortable with this system. Seeing as the wealth gap is growing ever wider and more and more people find themselves below the poverty line, especially in the USA, the home of capitalism, I’m still wondering why you’re so unwilling to contemplate change.

Balance doesn't have to mean equal amounts of wealth.

The most important priority is that everybody has enough - particularly the essentials.

Shelter, food, energy. Because there needs to be some treats and some respite from the grind in life.

That sort of balance is very achievable even in a system that retains inequality of wealth.