To feel distressed and heartbroken re Ukraine’s increasingly desperate pleas for help?

[UltraLightfly]

You can hear the desperation in their president’s (and former presidents) voices now. They are BEGGING for physical help. Begging for a no-fly zone to be implemented.

I KNOW we can’t do anything as it’ll cause WW3, but tonight, listening to a former presidents and the current presidents desperate pleas is actually quite distressing. Heartbreaking. Those poor people being left to their fate with the Russians

All those saying that Ukraine should surrender, how would you feel if someone invaded the UK and everyone said we should surrender for the good of Europe and the rest of the world and be occupied by a tyrannical force? We'd fight for our country, just like the Ukrainians are.

[quote TellMeMoreHellebore]@WulyJmpr

well yes, i agree...but mumsnettrs dont like hearing that![/quote]
More like SOME people on MN don’t hold much truck with SOME people on MN whipping up hysteria with pointless posts.

To anyone feeling anxious (probably most of us), try limiting your news intake - allow yourself to watch, say, the 6pm news each day. Donate money to appropriate charities. Email your MO with regards to the refugee system. The rest of the time, try to keep your life as “normal” as possible.

In the climate of SM, it’s very tempting to air/vent your worries on sites like this - but just try to remember that you’re doing so to a complete bunch of strangers and you have no clue as to the motives behind their replies.

I feel sick to my stomach seeing those latest pictures in the news tonight of families dead on the pavement obviously killed while in the act of fleeing with their suitcases and their cat they were trying to save in a carrier beside them, while the world looks on scared to intervene by the threats of a deranged psychopath.

A horrific indictment on humanity.

@Iflyaway

It’s so bizarre as in a civilised country we have never had to think like this at all before ever

As CPL593H says, you were obviously not around in the 80's of the last century.

We had the "cold war" between Russia and USA. I grew up with it.

Never thought it would be a feature of 2022. Absolutely terrifying.

To the PP who is pregnant, try to limit your exposure to the news. I was pregnant when the Balkan war was going on. I just couldn't watch it.

Yes, we did grow up with it. Also, my husband (older than me) narrowly avoided being machine gunned by a Stuka in his pram on a quiet street in an East Anglian coastal town, in 1945. This stuff is sadly endless.

I think those of us who lived through the Cold War feel a certain outrage that it is happening again (with knobs on) and much sympathy for those younger who are experiencing it for the first time. We have to think most of the people of Ukraine though, because our imaginings are currently their reality.

@nothingbutsnow

I was wondering earlier today, whether there would be wars at all if the main pattern for the world was feminine and if so, what would they look like

Like MN

Just a touch of levity to lighten the mood.

Sorry, but this made me laugh.

Some idiot has plonked his tank on my drive, shall I block him in and have a glass of wine? I’ll do a diagram in a minute.

@JulesRimetStillGleaming

If we were invaded by Putin I'd say the same thing. Surrender to save lives, prevent a nuclear holocaust and wait it out until the bastard is dead.

@Willyoujustbequiet

Ukraine needs to surrender. He is a madman and will destroy the world. Millions will die.

Let Putin think he's won. Play the long game. He's ill and in his 70s. Surrender will save lives until such time his evil has died.

I think there would be a massacre of civilians of Ukraine surrendered. You seem to think they can surrender and there will be no retaliation. I do not think that will happen. Putin will want revenge against every Ukrainian who fought against his army in any small way. Thousands of people will be murdered.

And if I was Ukrainian I would rather die trying to win against Putin, than surrender and be murdered.

@alltheapples

I'm not that naive. There would need to be a negotiated settlement of some sort. But I still think surrender will save many more lives than the path we are on at the moment.

[quote Willyoujustbequiet]@JulesRimetStillGleaming

If we were invaded by Putin I'd say the same thing. Surrender to save lives, prevent a nuclear holocaust and wait it out until the bastard is dead.[/quote]
Great idea, everything I’ve read make living in an occupied country sound positively quaint.

Am guessing you’re female? Maybe do a couple of quick searches on how women tend to fare in occupied countries.

Then think again about why the Ukrainians do not want to give up their country.

Oh for goodness sake. Ukraine can’t surrender… and the rest of the world can’t be held hostage by the threats of one mad man who will then go on to destroy more countries because we did nothing and let him.

If we allow that then what’s the point?!

Besides that there’s lots of people saying that Ukraine can’t win… why can’t they? The Russians in their substandard equipment don’t seem to be doing a very organised job of it so they? They seem very, very inexperienced in combat… and outdated in technology.

I wouldn’t write Ukraine off just yet.

@Willyoujustbequiet there have been two negotiated ceasefires to allow time for women and children trapped in basements with no or little food and water, to leave. Both times soldiers have continued shooting and shelling in spite of the negotiated ceasefire.
Putin has no interest in sticking to negotiated agreements.

Putin might agree if Ukraine surrender he will not take revenge. Then he would do it anyway. What are the west going to do? They have already shown they will not attack Russia or intervene directly in Ukraine. He would have nothing to lose given that Russias conduct in Ukraine is already being investigated for a number of war crimes. What would one more be?

So sorry but I think you are being very naive to think Putin will adhere to any agreed ceasefire unless there is military might externally to enforce it.

And if you have been following this you will know Zelensky has been desperately trying to get a ceasefire agreement, drafting in people like Isreals President to mediate. But Putin will not agree to anything.

So what you are asking for is not a negotiated agreement, that is being tried and Putin has not been interested. But a total surrender by Ukraine. It would be a bloodbath. And the Ukranians will know that.

@Furries

Short term occupation until an ill psychotic madman dies is preferable to the annihilation of the entire planet and the deaths of billions.

Putin can not hold Ukraine. Even in Cities the Russians have taken, there have still been large protests. Russia will lose Ukraine eventually.

@Willyoujustbequiet so you are asking Ukrainians to sacrifice themselves?
I think you are wrong anyway. Appeasement does not work with people like Putin. It gives them the strength to undertake further attacks.

Also the longer this goes on in Ukraine the less credibility Putin will have with his people. If Ukraine gives in then Putin will look like a hero to the Russians and he’ll probably get more soldiers etc.

He needs to be made to look like the prat he is.

@alltheapples

I agree he can't be trusted but that only serves to emphasise that surrender is ultimately the only viable option. It's either that or the end of the world.

And the economic sanctions will hopefully impact Russian oligarchs who will put pressure on Putin to end this.

[quote Willyoujustbequiet]@Furries

Short term occupation until an ill psychotic madman dies is preferable to the annihilation of the entire planet and the deaths of billions.[/quote]
I don't think so. If Ukraine is given up, it makes him more likely to invade somewhere else, possibly Moldova as not a NATO country. Where will it end? The day he does actually invade a NATO country? What do we do then? Say, yeah, OK, well, and let him do it?

There has to be a line in the sand.

@Willyoujustbequiet So which country would we let him invade next?
Finland are obviously nervous.

This is not the end of the world. That’s fear and anxiety speaking.

@alltheapples

Of course I'm not asking the Ukrainians to sacrifice themselves. But neither can those seeking a NFZ ask that the rest of the world risk destruction of a nuclear war.

I want Ukraine to prevail. I just can't see any other way than surrender. He's batshit and I want to save as many lives as possible.

At the moment, Putin is saying that enforcing a no fly zone will essentially result in WW3, while breaking cease-fires, massacring civilians and bombing Ukraine to bits. What will you say when (I suspect he will say soon) that supplying weapons or imposing economic sanctions is an act of war and he ups the stakes?
He will not stop at Ukraine.

I honestly think it's a waiting game. He won't last more than a couple more years at best. Try to save lives in the short term by avoiding nuclear war. He'll be dead before he has the resources/finances to invade anyone else.