3 yo forty minutes of screaming and shouting and crying

[pandarific]

Forty. Minutes. I have used my calm nice mum voice, I have explained why no, we cannot do what he wants to do. I have suggested other things. I had a baby crawling around too and a cold (from him).

Got: ‘I’m the leader, I say no, I’m in charge, not you, you are naughty, I say yes!!!’ Coupled with screeeeeeaming and crying.

I am so over it. So over it. He’s being such a nightmare at the moment.

At what age does this stop? My NCT group’s kids seem to be phasing out of the toddler tantrums, but mine is the only one who will keep going and going and going and -

Fully hate my life this morning. Please be nice to me.

My eldest child (now 7) still has tantrums, my six year old never has, remember they are all so different so don't worry you're doing something wrong.

Advice I was given was not to leave them/put them in any time out, they are taking comfort from you regardless of how it feels. Hugging mine when she doesn't want it makes it even worse and gets her hot and bothered.

I try not to keep repeating myself or a gaming with the tantrum but sometimes other things work. Distraction like saying 'oh wow, look at this!!' when looking out the window, finding a baby photo on the phone and saying how sweet and does she want to see it, talking about something nice coming up in a totally normal voice - that kind of thing. Otherwise repeating back to them what they are saying but as a question sometimes works -ie 'I'm the leader', 'you're the leader?'. 'Yes and i say I get it!' 'You say you get it?' Etc. Makes them stop and think sometimes and can de escalate.

It's horrible but staying a calm as far as you can is the best way to deescalate but it's really hard!

@Nelliephant1

Boys do have a testosterone surge around the age of four and seven so it may be that it's kicking in a wee bit earlier for your wee boy. As with all things hormonal, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason for it and not a lot of rationality, he probably can't explain it either as it may be hormonal rather than anything else.

Have a look at the book Raising Boys by Steve Bidiulph. He's an Australian psychologist who is fab and his book is very light, easily read and full of things that the majority of people don't know about the physical and physiological development of boys.

Hang in there!

That’s incorrect. Boys don’t have a testosterone surge at that age. I work in endocrine!!

They have a surge around puberty. At 11-17. Then it starts to decline from around 19.

Not 4!!!!

@Snippysocks

Forty minutes?! If you've tried all the great suggestions on here and they've failed, go into another room, take a deep breath, go back in and a quick smack on a nappied bottom should do the trick. It's not the smack that does it (and shouldn't be a hard one done in anger), it's the shock if you never do it. When a toddler has got himself into this sort of rage he won't hear all the calm voices in the world. And yes - am anticipating a shoot down here, talks of violence etc but all my children still love me and ask me to have their children to stay so the occasional the short, sharp shock when they were little obviously didn't traumatise them or make them hate me. And they have all grown up to be kind and gentle people!

seriously

Sympathies. I thought I was the worlds best mother with DS1 when he was two. All my friends kids having tantrums and my little darling playing nicely. My smugness lasted til he turned 3 and into, frankly, a monster for almost a year. Hideous, long, raging tantrums very frequently. It was awful.

During these times he hated any approach. Being touched, comforted, reasoned with, ignored, told off.

It has passed abs I’m sure it will for you. I wish you fortitude in the meantime!!!

Ignore him till he calms down. As pp said, in some children continuing to talk fuels the rage. Try a cuddle by all means, but if that doesn't work completely disengage. When they've stopped, move on swiftly. No need to rake over it all. My ds is 10 and we still sometimes have alright power struggles. I still employ the same tactics now of offering a hug and if it's refused, walking away until he's calmed down. At his age we do talk about things afterwards but after the event when rational talk is possible. Some kids feed off the argument and have to have the last word. You sound like a brilliant parent op btw. Keep calm and carry on!!

• almighty power struggles that should have said!

Glad somebody else has pointed out that Biddulph was talking nonsense about testosterone increases before puberty.

Same as a PP different racks worked for different children. DS1 needed feeding. DS2 distraction and DD ignoring!
Sorry, not much help.

Stop with the nicey nice voice. Speak in a more authoritative tone. I agree with stopping the reasoning. Say I have said no. When he starts just say no.

@Squiffy01 I hear you, and I understand you. I worry about this too. Some of the advice here is good, some though well intentioned is just a bit obvious.

I think I forget sometimes with him that the BIG tantrums are usually because I haven’t understood him somehow. I just can’t stand being followed around and screamed at. My family was like that growing up, and I just can’t stand it. I swore never to have it happen in mine. Uuuuugh.

@TheFlyHalfsMum

That's the kind of thing my daughter would say in some situations. Lucky not this one for me. She sometimes asks to play the colours game now when she can feel herself going.

What did he want?

Harvey Karp’s book ‘The Happiest Toddler on the Block’ (cheesy title!) was really good when mine were that age. Helpful to understand why little kids behave like that, and some empathetic, kind strategies that really work.

@Cuck00soup

^ Yes, you're in charge of the dinosaurs, and Mummy is in charge of you. Oh look there's a bird in the garden. Shall we go to the swings later or feed the ducks?^

I know you mean well with this advice, but it does not work on all kids. I get quite frustrated with all this unicorn happy parenting advice, because I want it to work too, but it never explains what to do if it doesn’t. If I give my 3 year old daughter a choice: “do you want A or B” she will say C or No.

@Hellolittlestar same here. Or 'I don't know'. I do the you pick or I'll pick for you thing though and that usually produces an answer.

Mine says “Don’t talk at me Mummy I’m trying to scream” if you try to distract him. I just say “ok we can have a cuddle when you’ve finished screaming” and then we talk about feelings etc when he’s stopped. It’s fairly dreadful while it lasts but to be honest I sit on the sofa and zone out while he writhes about on the floor and gets it out his system.

I agree with the minimise engagement. You can't negotiate when they are in this frame of mind. With dd any talking enraged her further and if I tried to hug her that would cause fury as you'd never imagined. One of us would have ended up hurt. She's now a lovely well balanced 8 year old so keep that in mind op

Do try the reading books aloud thing. Honestly you will be surprised!

What works with mine is definitely not hugging! Or distracting! But agreeing: “Yes, this is really horrible and tough, isn’t it? You’re having a hard time. But it won’t always be like this and after the angry, we can [calm activity].”

She does the exact same “I’m the boss!” chat and really works herself up; contact makes her more ferocious but at a certain point she clearly wants to calm, doesn’t know how, but needs a hostage negotiator to help walk her out of it.

Thought I'd share this, as it made me laugh.

Last week dgd, just turned 3, was having a screaming, on the floor, fist pounding, tantrum. So I got down there with her and joined in.

The sight of grandma lying on the floor next to her screaming her head off too (thank goodness we don't have close neighbours) struck her as so bizarre she stopped screaming and started laughing.

Hope all is well now op. 💐

I had one very strong headed one (still is). I found giving her 2 choices usually worked. We went from her refusing to get ready to go out (which in fairness we had to do a lot to pick and drop her older siblings to school, nursery, activities etc) , to me giving her a choice and making it sound exciting. I can't remember what they were but things like, do you want me to put your shoes on or do you want to put them on yourself. Do you want to walk to the car or shall I carry you. Do you want to take peppa pig or a barbie with you.

I also spent years getting the kids to fetch stuff for me by doing the 'I bet you can't get the wipes by the time I finish counting to 10'. My eldest laughs now and wonders how I got away with it for so long.

Kids love games so making stuff into a competition - who can clear up the toys the fastest etc , makes it fun for them.

By giving them a choice, they get a say in it and feel more powerful.

[quote Hellolittlestar]@Cuck00soup

^ Yes, you're in charge of the dinosaurs, and Mummy is in charge of you. Oh look there's a bird in the garden. Shall we go to the swings later or feed the ducks?^

I know you mean well with this advice, but it does not work on all kids. I get quite frustrated with all this unicorn happy parenting advice, because I want it to work too, but it never explains what to do if it doesn’t. If I give my 3 year old daughter a choice: “do you want A or B” she will say C or No.[/quote]
It depends what they want; the point is getting them into an active conversation about their needs rather than a tantrum. Children parrot back what they hear, if you don't like their script then consider what they are hearing. Is it something they can have another day, or later, or dangerous etc, why can't that be explained?

I think the distraction etc can work at 2, but not at 3, or at least not to mine. He’s got excellent language, so it’s not that.

What he wanted to do: we went out in the front garden to play with his remote control car. Then he saw his scooter wanted to play w that - fine. THEN he wanted to go out the garden gate and scoot up and down the road. I say no, because I’m not dressed (dressing gown and slippers) and i have the baby crawling around. I said he could scoot a bit on the path outside the garden, or in the garden - NOPE. Then screaming started when I said no, we are not doing that, I have told you why we are not, you can do x or y, or we can go inside. Then 40 min tantrum.

Aw this is so hard, but it depends on the child I think. It felt cruel to me to separate myself from my ds when he got like this, but in the end it was the quickest way to de-escalate it - remove myself from the room to give him a chance to calm down. For my dd the hug and empathy thing worked well, and for her humour nearly always worked - trying to make her laugh brought her out of it.
If he's upset at not being in control, can you let him have more control of unimportant things maybe. I'm sure you're doing this already.
Hugs you sound very patient

Sorry just read your latest update - that is hard! They don't understand that they have to wait a few mins until you're dressed or whatever.

Maybe a little timetable might help - a routine on the wall so he knows what's happening. Like after breakfast you watch tv while mum gets ready and then we go out on the scooter. My ds loved to know 'the plan' and liked when he knew what was happening.

Hard though, as you have to be so disciplined yourself, and you have a baby too, so it's bloody impossible sometimes