Who do I believe?

[JohnPrescottsPyjamas]

Adult DS and GF have been together for 6 years. Met overseas and she has come back to live with him from another country. Always had a pretty good relationship with her although she can be a little sensitive over certain issues so have learnt to just be diplomatic. She is 32, 6 years older than him.

Hysterical phone call received from her last night telling me he had locked her out of their flat. She said they’d rowed earlier, she’d gone out in her car to walk the dog. When she got back, he wasn’t allowing her back in and not answering her calls. As she was safe, I suggested she just waited in the car until things perhaps cooled down and asked if she wanted me to try and call him to talk to him? She was adamant that wasn’t a good idea so I wasn’t quite sure why I was called.

She was sobbing, told me she was very scared of him and that he had a very nasty temper. This genuinely alarmed me as DS has always been seemed pretty chilled and unless he’s very good at deception, we could be talking about a totally different person. I asked if he had been violent and she told me he had once ‘punched’ her in the arm in the car when they were driving. Without being there, I have no idea what his version of events was and I’m actually very alarmed to think my DS might be treating women like this.

Whilst staying in the phone to me, she tried the door again and got straight in. I could hear her shouting at him for locking her out - he denied he did - clearly he didn’t know it was me on the other end of the phone and I could hear everything. He tried to apologise but she accused him of not meaning it. She made a great big deal out of it to him, keeping on and on. Surely, if she was frightened of him, she wouldn’t have continued to up the anti and be attempting to diffuse the situation?

She regularly goes back to her home country alone to her family. Her and DS have no children, I own the property they are living in and apart from DS she has no ties to this country. If he was that controlling or scary, why does she keep come back or am I in denial about my DS?

I posted on here 18 months ago about a dog saga too. She acquired this part German Shepherd puppy, despite my DS not wanting her to, but he relented. She didn’t agree with formal training and this combined with lack of socialisation in lockdown has made it into a potentially dangerous animal that has already bitten DS. Again, if DS was that much of a ogre, why would he still tolerate the dog or even allowed her to have it in the first place?

When he visits us (she rarely comes because she can’t leave the dog alone without company) she constantly messages him. Maybe it’s because he’s controlling, but again if he was, why would he leave her to do her own thing? She has her own car, comes and goes as she pleases, does online tuition/translation and doesn’t appear to be a ‘prisoner’

My DD can’t believe her brother is as violent as the GF is implying and thinks she was just trying to get her version of events in first. I don’t want to think my DS is an abuser and if I found out he was, adult or not, I would be down on him like a ton of bricks.

DH and DD thinks GF was very wrong to get me involved in their argument and that she’s the one being manipulative but it still worries me that any woman might be scared of my DS. I really want to hear his version of the situation but tbh, also want to keep well out of it too.

Regardless of what has gone on, I think you need to start laying your neck on the line and encourage your son to leave this relationship. Maybe he is the abusive one, maybe she is. But regardless of who is at fault, by ending it, it makes sure that both parties are safer.

Yes I'd start being a bit more forthright with DS about your concerns about GF. Make sure he knows he has your support if he wants to make changes.

You need to educate yourself of victims of abuse behaviour. Why does anyone stay in abusive relations? Because its a cycle, it is difficult to break. Nearly all abusers have split personalities, they appear great to the public but are monsters behind closed doors. She rang you because clearly she was desperate and it us your house she was locked out off. My abusive ex used to lock me out amongst other things then swear blind he didn't. Its called gaslighting.

There's a possibility he has abusive traits. Maybe they are both toxic. But there's no smoke without fire. Nobody wants to to think of their child as abusive but abusive men exist and half the time you wouldn't think it of them because it's a very hidden crime. She may well text him constantly, there's a possibility he has emotionally abused her. For example I was told I was worthless fat and ugly and nobody would want me - as a result I clung to my abuser like glue because that's all I thought I was worth

Don't make any assumptions, just ring him when she's gone home. Talk about what's gone on, I'd explain that she called you, when locked out.

Abusers can be lovely and charming people to the outside world. "He's the last person we would ever have thought..."

Either he, or her, is doing something very wrong here, but it's impossible to know who.

Is she playing the victim, to isolate him from his family, hoping they will distance themselves from him if they think he is a bad person?

Or is she a frightened woman who has been locked out of the house by her gaslighting partner?

Someone here is a nasty piece of work, and I would encourage the relationship to end as they clearly are not good for each other.

In situations like this you should side with your son but tell him very firmly that he needs to kick the GF out ASAP and cease any contact with her. Either he's abusing her or she's abusing him (or both) - but in any case the relationship needs ending immediately.

Explain to him that you love him but you are concerned for his wellbeing because of what the GF has claimed.

Ultimately once the relationship is over you will still need to have a relationship with your son, but have no need to have one with the now ex-GF.

Worst case scenario is it's true he's abusing her, in which case you're doing her a favour by splitting them up.

OP, the fact he shoved her is very concerning.

This is not a healthy relationship.

A shove is serious.

A shove is assault.

The relationship is toxic.

For yourself do not down play the shove.

Take it very seriously.

IMO, someone who was in a relationship so toxic as to shove his partner, if they were genuinely regretful, would want out of the relationship to work on why they would do that.

Their relationship sounds very ugly.

I think he should be told he needs to find somewhere else to live as you no longer support this relationship.

This is not a relationship to add children to.

He needs to take a long hard look at his choices.

He is at risk IMO of really messing up his life.

She’s coming across quite badly IMO but …I’d make it clear that you would back him 200% if he’s had enough and also look up some domestic violence resources for all of you.

You're being very balanced and considered about this, which is admirable. I think a lot of people would either just automatically believe the woman, or automatically believe their own son, so kudos to you for looking at it from both sides and going by what you actually heard as well as what you were told.

You mentioned that DS's partner is going away for 10 days and I do think that would be the ideal time for you for you to have a conversation with him, even if he says he doesn't want to talk about it. I think if he is the one who is scared of her, rather than vice versa, then it might be hard for him to admit, but there does need to be a conversation. I think you could potentially pitch it as 'I don't want to be nosy about your relationship and I'm not making any judgements, but I've been worried about both of you and you were obviously both very upset...'

FWIW, I previously had a relationship with a violently abusive, volatile man, and I'm tremendously sympathetic to any woman in that awful situation - and I'd add that I think his mum wouldn't have wanted to believe that her son could be abusive, either. But I also have a close relative whose girlfriend did something very similar to what your son's girlfriend, and the reality turned out to be very different from what she'd suggested. We discovered she had hit him many times, taken his car and house keys and locked him into her parents' house so he was trapped there for the entire day when he was supposed to be at college.

I also think it's interesting that she phoned you rather than anyone else. I think most women who were being abused in that way probably wouldn't phone the mother of the abuser, especially if they weren't actually asking them to intervene. In the case of my relative, the girlfriend also chose to call a member of our family, and it happened to be a family member who worked in a field that my relative was trying to get into and who could have blocked his career progress if they'd fallen out with him. (But equally I see from your later posts that she doesn't really have many other people in the UK that she could have called.)

I would want to know more about the "shove". Up until your DS admitted to that, I was rather uncomfortably thinking that in your situation I would believe my son - which is at odds with my usual policy of believing women when they say they have been abused.

In 25 years together, DH has never once "shoved" me, or used ANY kind of physical force against me in anger. He just wouldn't. I hope my sons are the same. A single shove may not sound like much, but it's a rubicon that should never, ever be crossed.

Was she driving at the time? Had she lashed out physically?

@sadpapercourtesan

I would want to know more about the "shove". Up until your DS admitted to that, I was rather uncomfortably thinking that in your situation I would believe my son - which is at odds with my usual policy of believing women when they say they have been abused.

In 25 years together, DH has never once "shoved" me, or used ANY kind of physical force against me in anger. He just wouldn't. I hope my sons are the same. A single shove may not sound like much, but it's a rubicon that should never, ever be crossed.

Was she driving at the time? Had she lashed out physically?

Apparently he was driving and she was pulling at him. Without being there, and not defending him in the least, there’s a subtle difference between shoving someone in temper and pushing them away because they’re posing a danger whilst you’re driving. Only the two of them will know the truth.

I quite agree that the relationship is clearly toxic. He’s always been very passive and non confrontational, even growing up - which ironically can sometimes be a problem in its self because issues can fester until they become explosive rather than being dealt with appropriately. He’s had friendships with male friends as a teenager where he’s come home and gone to his room rather than deal with unpleasant or aggressive behaviour from others. Ironically, I have in the past told him he needs to stand up for himself more!

It's not that simple though. A close family member is in a toxic relationship, and he is 100% convinced that his girlfriend is the victim, and that nothing is ever her fault. We just don't understand what it's like to have her mental health problems etc etc. She has been physically and verbally abusive to him, but he can't see it, as she manages to twist things around every time. Any perceived criticism of her results in him stopping contact for months on end, which is more concerning, as it means he gets no outside reality check. He is convinced that everything is always his fault, and that he gets things wrong, or miscommunicates them, so is constantly trying to preempt and appease her. It's an awful, exhausting, soul-destroying situation.

Sounds like my DS' ex. She was a perennial victim, and tbf did indeed have a pretty shitty past. But instead of addressing the issues she had, by getting counselling etc, she insisted he be her only source of support and over time cut him off from friends and family. Now she stops him seeing their DC, she'll agree a date and time and then not be there when he arrives. Once she simply refused to open the door, and when he called through the letter box she phoned the police. He almost spent the weekend in custody for that one, but fortunately the police believed him. He's with a much lovelier partner now.

Met DS for lunch yesterday as I thought it would be a good opportunity to talk to him whilst GF is completely out of the way overseas.

He is incredibly defensive of her. He said he is probably at fault because he isn’t patient enough with her, doesn’t always acknowledge that she is a stranger in a foreign country and that she’s socially isolated. He excused her attitude at DDs wedding saying GF was feeling tired after speaking in English to other guests (her English is fluent, she has a degree from a U.K. university in it, does an online transition service and has taught it) and that she doesn’t enjoy mixing with others anyway.

I asked why she rang me to complain about his behaviour during the row and he said she had no one else in the U.K. she could contact but me. This is odd because she is supposedly very close to her family who are only a call away. She wasn’t asking me to protect her - I live an hour and a half away - just to tell me how frightening he was and the fact he had locked her out - which he was adamant was an accident. He said whenever he shuts a door, he turns the key automatically.

Having spoken to him, it sounds as though there is no intention by either to finish the relationship, no matter how toxic it seems to be. She’s been messaging him in a friendly, loving way and he’s looking forward to her return.

I came away feeling if it was my DD describing a BF who didn’t like her friends, didn’t want to go anywhere with her, dragged up long past issues whenever they fought, sulked at a family wedding and kicked off if he didn’t get his own way (bringing the infamous dog home even though DS said the timing wasn’t good as he was about to lose his job) we’d be judging him quite differently.

All I could do was reassure DS that we were there for him if and when he needed us.

I asked him if there was any truth in what she had told me. His response was, “I don’t know what to say. I just feel stabbed in the back.”

Hmm, now I'm thinking that maybe he's hiding something. He just avoided answering you.

...just to tell me how frightening he was and the fact he had locked her out - which he was adamant was an accident. He said whenever he shuts a door, he turns the key automatically.

Also this. First he said the key was in the door but not locked, now he says he automatically locks it. I think he did lock her out.

Patience op. But never let your ds feel you have any doubts in his integrity.. If he feels his gf is the 'only one who understands him' he will stay in that relationship longer...

If she is away at the moment, and he is living in your property, surely this would be the opportune time (or maybe not this particular visit but one coming up soon so it can be managed properly), for you to decide to do some renovations on the property. Plan it so that she needs to clear out her stuff and let him know that that they wouldn't be living there together for a length of time. She would have to live elsewhere with her dog and he could come home to you.

He does sound like he might do things that are not in his normal behaviour but only when he's at the end of his tether with her and her behaviour. She does sound like she keeps pushing and pushing and then he might snap (i.e. 'accidentally' lock her out). A shove I wouldn't be so caught up on because if he was driving he was probably trying to focus on that and not moving someone away from the controls of the car.

If they do ever split up, she has to take the dog. No questions asked.

That's my tuppence worth on the situation.

@LookItsMeAgain

If she is away at the moment, and he is living in your property, surely this would be the opportune time (or maybe not this particular visit but one coming up soon so it can be managed properly), for you to decide to do some renovations on the property. Plan it so that she needs to clear out her stuff and let him know that that they wouldn't be living there together for a length of time. She would have to live elsewhere with her dog and he could come home to you.

He does sound like he might do things that are not in his normal behaviour but only when he's at the end of his tether with her and her behaviour. She does sound like she keeps pushing and pushing and then he might snap (i.e. 'accidentally' lock her out). A shove I wouldn't be so caught up on because if he was driving he was probably trying to focus on that and not moving someone away from the controls of the car.

If they do ever split up, she has to take the dog. No questions asked.

That's my tuppence worth on the situation.

That’s a good point.

Along a similar line, I had wondered about announcing I was planning to sell the property just to bring matters to a head. She certainly couldn’t even consider staying with me as I have my own dog and two cats and I wouldn’t trust her dog at all with my animals. When I was there yesterday, it had to be shut in a separate room as it is so vicious. I quite agree, I’m an animal softie, but this poor animal is a basket case because she doesn’t believe in any form of training so I certainly wouldn’t want to be left with it or be responsible for rehoming such a potential minefield.

I was (wishfully) thinking that her being out of the situation might clarify both their feelings and enable them to be rational but if anything, absence had made the heart grow stronger.

It's difficult to know what's true. When I was in an abusive relationship, I told his friend, who was a woman, what had been happening. She was appalled. I'm sure he got to her after we broke up and told her I was full of shit. What I'm saying is that abusers are good at showing an innocent face to the world. It was a toxic relationship but mainly because I started fighting back after he ground me down. I was tired of being sworn at an belittled. I have no idea where he is now but I guarantee his mum doesn't have a clue. I just thank my lucky stars I got away. Sounds like they should definitely break up, anyway.

@Realitydawning98

Ask to meet him. Tell her about the conversation with gf and that you are concerned and ask his version of events. You will j ow if he is being honest and at least you will be making him aware of what’s she is saying and if it’s lies he will soon get the measure of her.

Yes, I did this yesterday.

We went for a long walk together and he did a lot of talking. As I posted earlier, he sounds as though he acknowledges issues between them but wants the relationship to work despite all the dramas they’ve had. He said he’s done loads of thinking whilst they’ve been apart but as soon as she’s on a video call, he forgets everything and wants to be with her.

I’ve pointed out to him that nothing will probably change, and he needs to recognise that, because they both are what they are - if that makes sense? DS is a friendly, sociable person and wants to go out as a couple more - she doesn’t. He’s concerned that she doesn’t have enough (or even any!) female friends. He’s suggested she gets maybe part time employment where she can meet others - she won’t. She says she didn’t get a degree to work in a menial job, which she has also told me several times over the years, she says all she wants to do is her online tutoring/translation service. She’s the same age as DD and there have been several occasions in the past where DD has tried to include her in social things with a group of women, but she isn’t interested - then complains to DS that she’s lonely.

The whole thing has become a complete echo chamber. She won’t do anything to change the situation, neither will he.

Well, it seems the 10 days apart have changed things.
GF messaged DS today. N. She wants to end relationship and is returning tomorrow to the U.K. to collect her stuff from the property.
She has also made an appointment on Tuesday to have the dog destroyed.
DS seems almost to have a sense of complete relief that it’s over although he is actually more upset about the dog and feels terrible as he feels it’s a victim of the situation. If anyone remembers from my original post 18 months ago, she took on this part German Shepherd puppy, had no experience of the breed, had some alternative ideas about training and it was never socialised so has become extremely reactive.

Wow. Poor dog.

It's a good thing that they're breaking up. I'd be very pleased with that outcome.

Although it's sad, I think she's making the right decision about the dog. He wouldn't have a chance in a shelter if he's dangerous.

Your son just has to beware the “I’ll have the dog destroyed” isn’t just dramatic scare tactics to make him beg her to come home.
It’s a sad outcome for the dog but he’d never survive in a rescue centre.