'Aid' lorries going to Ukraine...

[Blurp]

My Facebook timeline is suddenly full of requests from people who are filling lorries full of things to take to Ukraine - they're asking for donations of things like clothes, toiletries and food.

None of them seem to mention the name of a charity or any specifics - mostly it comes across as though some random bloke is just going to fill his lorry with stuff and drive it "to Ukraine".

At first I thought it was a great idea, but the more I read the more I'm questioning it. Not that I think the people doing it are dodgy or anything like that, more that I'm not sure how useful it would be.

Like, do they really need lorries turning up all over the place with random stuff inside? I've no doubt that much of the stuff would be useful, but how do they even start to sort through it and match it to people who need it? Where do they even go to drop it off - do they just pick a random road on the border and park there and give it out? I've seen a few people asking questions like this on the posts, but they tend to get ignored or shouted down.

As far as I'm aware, there are no issues with supply of goods to countries bordering Ukraine, so isn't it better to donate money to organisations already on the ground so that they can bulk buy what they need?

Again, I'm not knocking the people who organise these lorries or the people who donate to them; I'm just wondering how useful it really is.

[quote Cocomarine]@labyrinthlaziness I think your is misplaced actually. Very many things have a black market value. You think someone (Russian or otherwise) can’t make a profit from selling stolen tampons? Of course they can.

Individually organised vehicles are less cost effective than cash donations to experienced charities, for sure.

But - that’s not the reality, that people would choose one or the other. Giving actual physical items is much more motivating to many people. Like foodbank boxes here. You have to keep in mind that these aid runs aren’t replacing cash donations, they are additional to it. And that’s for specially bought items - when it comes to that outgrown child’s coat you’ve been meaning to eBay or charity shop for a year, an aid run is a big motivator.

I work in logistics and I also think 🙈
But then I remind myself - it’s accessing a donation stream that wouldn’t otherwise happen.[/quote]
it’s accessing a donation stream that wouldn’t otherwise happen Yes, some people can never give cash as they can not.

The speed that informal networks do things is amazing.

Of course individual vehicles are less cost effective. But if you wait for perfection overall less happens.

Those deliveries are also about safe humans showing unsafe humans that they care - there is a value to that human action that is immeasurable and only the cynical and depressed try to suppress human reactions IMO (leaving aside entering the actual war zone - that is not sensible clearly).

If you reduce people to only being allowed to make a contactless payment you are removing their agency and that is depressing.

Yanbu I am wondering this too. Mums here are running around donating old tiys and clothes that won’t suit the weather and I suspect money will be more helpful. Didn’t this happen before when lots of surplus clothes donated by well meaning Brits got abandoned in huge piles in France?

Agree 100%.

People just do not think.

Donate to a proper charity if you feel the need.

Refugees need food, shelter, warm bedding and medication, not your second hand Primark tat or jumble sale clearout. People working on the ground organising thousands of refugees do not need a load of random foreign transits pitching up, off loading tat and getting in the way.

Don't get me started on Care for Calais and other such nonsense where I have it on good authority most of the donations are immediately dumped by the not so grateful recipients.

@ABitBesotted

I have given to the Red Cross. There will be opportunists among the many good people and it's not cynical to acknowledge that.

It is cynical to try to reduce giving. You are personally more concerned about the small percentage that will get misused than the vast majority that will help people - it makes no rational sense.

Of course some people will profiteer - it is a fucking war!

But to deny help to those who need it is depressingly cynical.

Let's cancel everyone's pension because someone is claiming for their Aunt Flo who died three years ago? No.

Someone from the association of Ukranians in Great Britain was on the radio yesterday asking for cash donations so that help could get to where it was needed as the issue was raised about lorry loads of stuff being taken over.

www.augb.co.uk/

I do a lot of emergency planning training in my role and there are countless examples of well meaning volunteers just causing chaos at exactly the point where humanitarian organisations need to work.

Our local polish community are doing a collection, they have been very clear on where on the border it will be heading and how.

The local schools have got on board and I think on a selfish level for many, especially children, it has let them think they are doing something helpful for the people who are going through such hell.

@forinborin

It would be very interesting for this to be explained, if you have time maybe you could post more because so many people (like @Blurp) are incredibly cynical/negative and assume they know everything.

Problems are now not on the EU side (it is very well provisioned), but on the Ukrainian side. A lot of people are stranded there waiting for the border crossing, women with children mainly. Money at the moment is not an issue, a lot of usual distribution logistics has been cut off. Many shops are not even opening.

It is organised in a grassroots way (i.e. you collect locally, and source the transport locally if you can), but there are coordinators too who direct the traffic, and there are centralised lorries running where you can book the space for your stuff.

We don't collect all random shit, there are lists sent from volunteering organisations on that side of what is currently in short supply. I turn away probably 50% of what people bring.

We drop off with a warehouse that has been set up on the border, my friend's husband is running a van. Ukrainian volunteers come and take it from there into the country to distribute further. They do it through the established community centres, churches and schools. Some of it (mainly sleeping bags, foam mats etc) goes further to cities where the supply lines are still running (there is one into Kyiv) and where they are more needed. You cannot buy a sleeping bag in Kyiv now with all the money in the world, it has to be brought in from somewhere. There is Red Cross who are doing a great job, but they (quite rightfully) focus on things like critically ill people, diabetes suffereres (no insulin anywhere now), anti-epileptic medicines, babies born (it is a 3-4 million metropolitan area) etc.

If I am accused one more time of trying to profiteer from selling mismatched tubes of toothpaste, honestly I'd cry.

And I think all these efforts will naturally die off in the next few weeks as usual humanitarian charities get more and more involved on a more wholesale basis. It was a lifeline for many people in those first days though.

Thank you, that's good to know.

I'm honestly not trying to dissuade people from donating if it's useful, but just wondering about some of the appeals I've seen and asking whether it works or whether there are better alternatives. Your explanation is helpful.

I understand what you mean. After the Grenfell Flats fire people sent bags and bags of stuff that was not needed and not suitable. Random stuff just shoved into bin bags - no sorting or anything. As a result volunteers had to take over a football ground and spend hours and hours to sort what was mostly unneeded stuff. I don't know what happened to all those donations. Probably shoved in a storage facility somewhere.

I'm honestly not trying to dissuade people from donating if it's useful, but just wondering about some of the appeals I've seen and asking whether it works or whether there are better alternatives. Your explanation is helpful.
A lot of it is organised in a very chaotic way. No one has expected the situation. And I will be the first to admit that there are way more efficient ways to deal with the situation.

I would like to add the organisation I have seen locally is brilliant and they are doing a great job.

I don’t worry about items being misused or anyone profiteering, I worry about random lorry loads making things more difficult logistically for the people and agencies at the borders. Because it’s been known to cause issues in the past.

I think the most trustworthy are those who have links in Poland or Ukraine who can work out where to take stuff.

I think this is true. DH’s workplace are collecting mostly children’s items because a few staff members are Polish and are going to travel out there to deliver it where it needs to go.

The advice is to donate to organised funds or charities on the ground.

Trucks of stuff were sent to Calais and that was very much needed and used so hopefully this will be the same.

Agree we not “doing nothing” but donating funds to those who already have the infrastructure. We’ve donated to lumos jk Rowling is funding the admin herself so your donations directly used for aid in Ukraine they focussing on children in care in Ukraine

It does cause chaos. I've worked in aid for 20 years and we call this the 'disaster within the disaster' sometimes. It comes from a very lovely impulse to help, but people will be absolutely slammed trying to sort and distribute donations. Refugees are in EU countries, markets are open, things can be bought locally, or near-local and markets will respond quickly. Seriously you wouldn't believe the stuff people send. Dirty sheets. School materials in languages not spoken. Half used medication, out of date. Notably, swimsuits and wetsuits after the tsunami.

NPR article here: www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/01/12/376716063/donating-a-single-rollerblade-is-not-going-to-help-disaster-victims

There's a good TED talk here: ideas.ted.com/after-a-disaster-dont-send-toys-or-clothing-send-money-heres-why/

Please free up volunteers by not sending loads of stuff. Send money, to local organisations if you don't want to donate to the big internationals. They can buy things there, the right number and type.

I also really worry about amateurs doing distributions. It's the most risky part of operations and crushes, violence, theft etc happen really easily.

I know I sound like a proper Debbie downer, and some people may be doing this well. But huge numbers of people will just show up with a van full of random stuff that others have to deal with, or just start chucking out the back of a lorry. I've seen it.

Sounds like an excuse for people to get rid of their junk

Our local Ukrainian club has asked people to stop dropping things off there but to donate £ to an official aid agency instead
I appreciate it’s down to kindness but apparently people are dropping off all sorts and it’s creating a logistical nightmare because at the end of the day someone will have to load it all int a lorry and drive it over to the area.

Someone we know is asking for donations for her Ukrainian club. I assume people will be driving trucks across Europe. I agree that locally sourced aid via known organisations (RC, UNICEF etc) might be better - but they are asking for items to take in to the country for those fighting (adult nappies and painkillers for the wounded). I don't think it's just about helping refugees at the border.

Unfortunately peoples desire to do something to feel better about themselves doesn't always tally up with what's best for those they are trying to help. Logistically this is a nightmare, I'd recommend donating to a coordinated effort.

ukrainianinstitute.org.uk/russias-war-against-ukraine-what-can-you lots of links here for trusted organisations working there that you can donate to.

YANBU @Blurp .
Doing good better by William Macaskill is a really good read on how you can make sure your money / donations / time actually makes a difference. He says some events / illnesses attract a lot more donations, e.g. cancer gets a lot more funding than malaria.

Money is always better than stuff. Poland has shops and supply chains to get more stuff there if needed, the local residents don't need donations from the UK if the refugees don't need them either. If you give to a big charity like red cross or DEC it might be used elsewhere like Syria or Ethiopia (civil war) that need help but are getting publicity right now.

There are lots in my area too, but they are mostly going to named logistic companies which have experience of travelling to Poland.

One is going via a named Ukrainian man living in the U.K. and according to local TV and press he has already successfully taken one lorry load.
I do know what others mean though and when I dropped items off at one of the collection points and saw rows of carrier bags it did occur to me that sorting it into groups must be a nightmare.

I suppose I felt I needed to do something. I am not naive enough to think that some items won’t go astray en route, but if anyone is desperate enough to steal 50 packs of Asda own brand sanitary pads and a sack of dog food, so be it.

I made a small cash donation to a large animal charity appeal and it was clear from their acknowledgment that the money was gong into central funds rather than being specifically for the Ukrainian animals. I suppose that is logical and they may already have helped, but it made my donation seem a little insignificant.

I think this thread is really unhelpful. People are assuming those collecting don’t have a plan and are just going to ‘turn up’ but have you actually asked any of them? All the ones I’ve seen (and donated items to) have family or other contacts in Ukraine who are asking for specific items which the people this end are then sourcing or requesting. Lots of them have military and/or medical experience and are asking for volunteers who have similar backgrounds to help with the deliveries. It’s not just ‘some random bloke from the pub’ loading his transit van with plasters and heading to Poland on a jolly.

I’ve volunteered in Calais and heard people saying similar sceptical things beforehand about ‘vans full of stuff just turning up’ but there are people at the other end who are absolutely delighted to receive those vans. As long as the stuff is collected in response to what people on the ground have actually asked for (which all the ones I’ve seen have been) then I think these are brilliant initiatives.

It makes me sad to see people saying they’ve thought twice about donating items after seeing this thread. By all means do your research about who’s collecting, how they’re getting the stuff there and whether the items will actually be helpful, but please don’t just write off these kind of initiatives as a concept because they are doing vital work right now.