'Aid' lorries going to Ukraine...

[Blurp]

My Facebook timeline is suddenly full of requests from people who are filling lorries full of things to take to Ukraine - they're asking for donations of things like clothes, toiletries and food.

None of them seem to mention the name of a charity or any specifics - mostly it comes across as though some random bloke is just going to fill his lorry with stuff and drive it "to Ukraine".

At first I thought it was a great idea, but the more I read the more I'm questioning it. Not that I think the people doing it are dodgy or anything like that, more that I'm not sure how useful it would be.

Like, do they really need lorries turning up all over the place with random stuff inside? I've no doubt that much of the stuff would be useful, but how do they even start to sort through it and match it to people who need it? Where do they even go to drop it off - do they just pick a random road on the border and park there and give it out? I've seen a few people asking questions like this on the posts, but they tend to get ignored or shouted down.

As far as I'm aware, there are no issues with supply of goods to countries bordering Ukraine, so isn't it better to donate money to organisations already on the ground so that they can bulk buy what they need?

Again, I'm not knocking the people who organise these lorries or the people who donate to them; I'm just wondering how useful it really is.

I think it's a good idea to get whatever help people are willing to give. Collections can really focus people's minds to go and shop or find things that they might otherwise keep, but are willing to donate.

The people that donate items may also donate cash to the charities.

Also people may want to donate things that are specific to their experiences as they feel pain for people that might be struggling with war and a similar experience. For example, I'm keen to donate items related to allergen free diets. Of course it may never reach someone with those dietary restrictions, but I still want to try. I have no idea whether the red cross provide dairy free baby formula, but I doubt it.

@gltm did you not read the rest of the discussion? I'm pretty sure the Red Cross (huge humanitarian organisation) can provide whatever baby formula is required. It really isn't a good idea for people to just give what they can / want to do when it comes to stuff. You become part of a problem, not a solution.

I think it's a good idea to get whatever help people are willing to give. Collections can really focus people's minds to go and shop or find things that they might otherwise keep, but are willing to donate

So why don’t they hold jumble or car boot sales with all the donations? Save a fortune on driving all of it across europe, and means much needed cash rather than bin bags of tat.

If you want to see what the problem looks like this is a really good example. Multiply this by everyone you've heard from asking for donations. Every school, football club, village hall etc. And then imagine the lorries queuing up at the ports just to get out of the country (and deal with all the paperwork).

GLTM Poland has plenty of large supermarkets (for example they have Carrefour in Poland - the 8th biggest retailer in the world) so the people who need specific food or baby milk will be able to get it there. Either themselves or via charities. It will be in packaging with the relevant languages on the label - something very important when it comes to allergies.
If you donate money to the Red Cross etc they will be able to purchase these items in Poland and get them to the people who need them quickly.

The danger is that this is all about the giver, however well meant. What matters at this time is what the Ukrainian people actually need and not adding to the logistical problems in a war zone and for neighbouring countries already dealing with over a million refugees. Instead, please donate cash to established and experienced aid organisations like DEC and the Red Cross who really are best-placed to help on the ground.

@nomoreusernames1244 probably for lots of reasons e.g. lack of time to organise and run one, lack of money to pay for a space, ill health, lack of transport etc.

That's the entire point, it's not wrong to give in whatever way people feel able to. Yes it's more efficient and effective to give cash in many, but not all cases, but sometimes it's not about giving cash instead of.

@Leftbutcameback no I haven't read all the discussion. There were some posts that were far too principled and lacked any understanding of how to encourage people to give support. That's great if the red cross have dairy free formula always in supply, as there is at least one hospital in the UK that doesn't.

I can't find the link now but the BBC had an article that included stories from some of the people doing collections who have found that getting the stuff into Europe is harder than they expected because y'know Brexit. Its not just bag up and go, they have to correctly list every single item. So, that's a load more work for the volunteers bagging up in the U.K. One of the people interviewed said they made hundreds of phone calls, had to rely on helpful French officials and then, for the next load got Ukrainian officials to help.

Or you could donate to a charity based in Europe who can do an order to the shops. Or an existing UK charity who have people experienced in logistics and transportation (and yes some money will go to that admin but actually it's quite necessary admin as well meaning volunteers are finding out)

@legoisthebest actually my plan is to buy things in Poland we have a family member who speaks polish and contacts there to. We have also given cash. The allergen free diet stuff is personal and extra specific support I want to give in my own way. It might not be perfect, but its not a bad thing.

So I am leaving next week with a transit van full of stuff specially requested by the distribution centre in Chelm.
Money is always useful and some charities are providing excellent help. However there are a lot of people who want to give stuff they have and people need. It's not a choice of either /or.
Obviously you need to know where your are going and that the stuff is actually needed. You can't just drive to Poland and randomly drive round asking if someone wants it - but assuming you have done that I would say good on you. It doesn't prevent people donating. It gives them a choice . A lot of people do not want to give money to large charities where a significant proportion goes on salaries and overheads. Preferring to give to a local set up where people are giving their time for free and the money/goods get to those in need quickly.

GLTM the Red Cross might not have immediate access to dairy free formula but if a child in a refugee centre in Poland needed some I expect someone (either the parent or a local who is helping out) would just go to the nearest Polish equivalent of Boots and get some.
Poland isn't a third world country. They have access to these things. They have supermarkets and shopping malls
Out of curiosity have you donated dairy free formula to Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan etc - countries that are more likely not to have access to it.

GLTM apologies - I have just read your reply.
Well that makes sense if you are buying the stuff in Poland. You gave the impression upthread that you would be sending it from the UK.
Are you in Poland though? Who is actually doing the shopping? How are you going to find specific children who need this formula? I expect the Red Cross etc will know who needs it and can get it to them directly but how are you going to do that?
Genuine curiosity.

Isnt it obvious that money will be more helpful? How are people so stupid? I've been watching the BBC reporting from Ukraine and the borders this week. On monday they were already saying "stop sending nappies and children's clothes, we have nowhere to store them" and similar things then today my local news was full of "bloke with van drives bin bags full of second hand tat and toiletries to poland - what a hero" why can't they just share responsible sources of ways to donate money? They are encouraging it. There was a woman on my local fb group today getting into a parking war with someone and she seemed to think that because she was in tesco "buying stuff to send to Ukraine" she was exempt from the usual rules of society. So I'm sharing this:

I know you are all fucking lovely people wanting to do everything you can , but please ....

Please read the following

From Grupa Granica in Poland

Good people of Europe, dear activists friends! 🤘
You want to help the refugees from Ukraine?
Please don't gather bottles of water and snacks and transport them through whole Europe. It is not only not economic, not ecological but also silly. Do not call your friends, gather the full car and come to the Polish-Ukrainian border if you don't have skills (translators, doctors, lawyers) and you haven't coordinated it with those on the ground.
There is enough drivers for now, there is enough food and blankets.
By coming just like this, you create additional mess and traffic jam, you use the petrol from the local petrol stations, you take away places to sleep (for refugees, doctors, journalists) you might serve the refugees wrong information about their legal situation, places they can go to.
I know that spending the same money (that you would use for the drive etc) as sending donation is not as cool, but I tell you: it is wayyyyy cooler!
I am not pretending to be smart, I have just seen mess created like this on different European borders for years, I was studying smart humanitarian response and I really wish the very best for the people coming directly from crisis. Let's not make it worse for them!
Donations?

• send money to UKRAINE - Ukrainian Red Cross (donate.redcrossredcrescent.org/.../~my-donation...&) or ICRC (www.icrc.org/en/donate/ukraine) (both are on the ground)
• send money to NGO dealing with refugees in POLAND for years, who know how to do it: Polish Migration Forum forummigracyjne.org/donate

Read, inform yourself, fight with disinformation and racism! You still badly want to go there yourself? Reach out to NGOs in Poland (Polish Migration Forum or Homo Faber for example) via their social media - I am sure they will answer whenever they will have a need for additional people. Plus... I am sure that you have war refugees in your countries too. Just look around and do something for them!

We’ve got a few locally. One man has put that, as well as driving his van to the border to give out nappies etc, he is going to “pick up some of the refugees and give them a lift to somewhere better”. Where?!

One list is a bit different from the others, in that they have a list of medication. Most of it is prescription only. How will they get it, taking people’s leftover meds? And how will they get that through customs.. it’s all a nice idea, just ill thought out I think.

Sorry I think it’s more about the giver feeling like lady bountiful. Any application of thought for 2 minutes you realise the sensible points made on this thread it makes no practical sense.

Plus I have read the Ukrainians are so understandably worried stuff has been tampered with by the Russians that they are won’t touch stuff without proven provenance anyway.

And if anyone is against “admin costs” jk Rowling covers the admin costs herself if you donate to Lumos and they have a Ukraine fund focussing on Ukrainian children in care.

The picking people up and taking them home thing is giving me the horrors. As a couple of people have pointed out it's a safeguarding nightmare and potentially a field day for traffickers.

Please please don't donate infant formula. There are really strong guidelines on this. Partly because the formula companies will use this as an opportunity to flood with donations to advertise their product and undermine breastfeeding, partly because the instructions will be in the wrong language (which can lead to things like non first milks being used for infants, formula being made up in the wrong proportions) and partly because it never all gets used and has to be junked. 20 tonnes was chucked in Macedonia after Bosnia. What a waste of money which could have been used to support other needs. UNHCR and WHO have well detailed guidelines on this.

Partly because the formula companies will use this as an opportunity to flood with donations to advertise their product and undermine breastfeeding

Not RTFT but completely agree with this, same here, Facebook absolutely swamped with places to drop off your old crap 'for Ukraine' and some bloke in a transit is going to drive there, apparently.

I can see that it comes from a good place but it's obvious to a half wit that driving across Europe with a van full of what's essentially junk plus a few nappies and turning up on the side of a road is more of a hinderance than a help.

Completely agree that financial donations to a proper organisation are much more helpful.

Someone local to me filled his car with stuff and drove over, asking for donations towards fuel. I can't help but think that the money donated for his fuel could have been better used by donating directly.

The Polish government have asked people to stop collecting stuff and bringing it in lorries:

www.gov.pl/web/unitedkingdom/humanitarian-aid-to-ukraine

@Hedgecog (messy link sorry) if you don't believe me. Unless you're saying you know better than WHO, UNICEF and UNHCR? They don't all sit round making up guidelines for fun, it's a very well documented practice of Nestlé in particular.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.unhcr.org/45f6cb1f2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjMo6vax672AhUDHewKHbeNDzIQFnoECC4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3cip8d933Ar1PTRiuupM6R" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.unhcr.org/45f6cb1f2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjMo6vax672AhUDHewKHbeNDzIQFnoECC4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3cip8d933Ar1PTRiuupM6R

@CallMeDaddy58

I have always found this kind of thing utterly bizarre. You either go to the supermarket and buy toiletries, blankets etc to donate or you give people your old crap. Why don’t the supermarkets do the donating en masse directly? Why aren’t pampers, tampax, Aptamil, whoever donating directly? Why do we piecemeal stuff together through the public as middlemen?

@CallMeDaddy58

I've always assumed it's because eg Tesco want kudos of donating to food banks, but funded by their customers.win win

YANBU. Sadly people are ruled by their hearts these days and don’t stop to consider that they might be doing more harm than good. The Polish government has already asked us NOT to send goods to Poland and yet locally people are still collecting. Never mind the environmental impact of transporting it all across the continent, blocking roads and using fuel that is needed elsewhere, and the fact that half of it will likely end up in landfill thus adding to the problem instead of helping.

Can I ask those wanting to help the people of Ukraine and considering a donation to think about Lumos? They now have a Ukraine Disaster Appeal to donate directly to but have been working in Ukraine since 2013. Ukraine has one of the highest numbers of children in orphanages and institutions in Europe. Over 100, 000 of Ukraine's most vulnerable children are currently trapped in its orphanages and institutions. 100% of personal donations go to help - not on administration and so on. Please be careful, as there are similar-sounding organisations - you need www.wearelumos.org