To think LTB is not always financially possible?

[BigupPemberleyMassive]

Especially with so many people struggling on dual incomes, is wanting the kids to be in a dual income, but frosty home unreasonable?

I'm not talking about things like alcoholism or violence, but threads where OP says husband flirted with a co worker by text etc. Obviously not acceptable, but if the choice is separate, move to a smaller more affordable place, an area with bad schools or stay and put up with it but kids have more financial stability?

Median UK salary is £30,000 and often less for women who have taken time out of paid work to have children.

AIBU to think sometimes financial reasons mean one can't LTB?

Or is it better to be struggling financially, and the kids can't do karate anymore or whatever, but you have dignity?

@Almostwelsh

Why are so many people referencing violence and abuse when those are things specifically excluded in the OP?

We aren't talking about those cases, but relationships where the couple are not getting along more generally.

I think a relationship doesn’t necessarily have to be violent and abusive (at least the more common forms of it) to be incredibly damaging. Flirting rarely stays as flirting, especially when the opportunity for more arises, and having your partner cheat and then having to stay with that partner can be so, so destructive for your self esteem and mental health in general.

Children are sponges. So many of my friends going into their 30s/40s have horrible self-image issues because they are convinced that all men cheat and that they are the selfish ones if they leave as they’ll be breaking up the family and making things worse for their kids. Plenty have mothers who’ve been through the same situation too. And then I look at many of my male colleagues. Well-off, breadwinners, sleeping around while their wife is pregnant or caring for their young kid and it’s seen as something that just happens.

Should we really be normalising this sort of relationships and behaviour for our kids? Just because it’s not violent or blatantly abusive doesn’t mean that it’s healthy, for them or their kids.

@JanglyBeads

The number one predictor of negative outcomes for children is growing up in poverty You mean the number one predictor out of the factors which have been researched properly. There is little large scale research on the effects of growing up witnessing DV, AFAIK.

But this thread isn’t about abusive relationships. It’s about the mum not being happy in their relationship/ feeling undervalued. Of course abusive relationships are damaging to kids but poverty is too and some of the cheerleaders on this thread conveniently overlook it as they’re personally happier post-split.

I’m a sahm at the moment in the south east with 2 young children, 1 with additional needs. I’d need to earn £50-60k to rent a 3 bedroom place or to cover the mortgage and bills on somewhere in a cheaper area of the city. There’s the option of moving to a cheaper area of the country with no support from friends but that would make it impossible to share custody and would be an upheaval for our child with sen. So our relationship is rubbish and I long to be really happy again but I feel like I have to stick it out for now. If I won the lottery there’s no way we would be together.

I have several friends who managed to separate but this was when the cost of living was lower 10 years ago.

If it was just about after school hobbies then clearly most people would leave.

I’m a sahm at the moment in the south east with 2 young children, 1 with additional needs.

What is your UC entitlement if you did have to resort to that? Have you assessed it with one of the online calculators? How much would you need to save towards a deposit for a private rental?

A thread on mumsnet from years ago will always stick in my mind. A mum who had been unhappy in her marriage, nothing terrible but partner was cold and unfeeling. She left, didn't get much in the divorce as husband cleverly did something was assets. She ended up in poor housing and kids chose to go live with their dad in original family home as it was much more comfy with latest mod cons and dad could pay for hobbies. It was the saddest thread thread Id read as she bitterly regretting leaving her husband.

Hankunamatata this is sort of how I feel about this thread. Marriages will go through all kinds of lows where you don't like each other or respect each other for a while. Where you are bickering and miserable. If there is no cheating or abuse maybe we should be normalising these not so happy parts of long term relationships knowing that happy days can come again in the partnership. LTB for low patches seems extreme to me. Marriage is about more than that, surely, or why bother getting married?

The problem with this kind of thinking is that it almost always boils down to 'women should allow being disrespected/miserable/treated badly in relationships or their children will end up in poverty and that's bad for them'.

Because a lot of the time, it's the mum, having had career breaks for kids etc, who can't afford to leave. Who has the choice between putting up with (to use some of the examples in this thread) rubbish relationships, husbands cheating, husbands being disrespectful, husband doing nothing domestically and making their lives harder, etc etc... or leaving, but making themselves much worse off financially and therefore risking some of the side effects of growing up without much.

I doubt many men are having these conversations, about not leaving cos they're worried their kids will grow up in poverty and they should just stick it out for their childrens' sake.

I don't know what the answer is but I don't love that there are so, so many women in this position, and there are many on this thread saying "Well, poverty is very bad for your kids, just put up with it". Why should women have to be miserable and put up with an awful relationship or bear that burden alone? Why do we accept that?

And, having watched my aunt stay with my uncle together for the sake of the financial stability, that's not good for children either. Their daughters - early to mid teens - are well, well aware their parents don't love each other, even if there's never any open hostility. What does that teach children? That money is more important than happiness or respect or self-respect? That it's normal or acceptable for a woman to be financially trapped?

We need lots of things - better approach to how working mothers are treated in terms of career progression, better and quicker access to financial support for separated parents, etc - but we really need to start teaching young women not to give up financial independence if they have children and we need there to be a social shift where it makes it the norm that both parents drop working hours to cover childcare, rather than just one, or it will forever be the norm that the lower-paid person (which is often the woman) puts themself in financial jeopardy which can take years to claw back from.

@housemaus

The problem with this kind of thinking is that it almost always boils down to 'women should allow being disrespected/miserable/treated badly in relationships or their children will end up in poverty and that's bad for them'.

Because a lot of the time, it's the mum, having had career breaks for kids etc, who can't afford to leave. Who has the choice between putting up with (to use some of the examples in this thread) rubbish relationships, husbands cheating, husbands being disrespectful, husband doing nothing domestically and making their lives harder, etc etc... or leaving, but making themselves much worse off financially and therefore risking some of the side effects of growing up without much.

I doubt many men are having these conversations, about not leaving cos they're worried their kids will grow up in poverty and they should just stick it out for their childrens' sake.

I don't know what the answer is but I don't love that there are so, so many women in this position, and there are many on this thread saying "Well, poverty is very bad for your kids, just put up with it". Why should women have to be miserable and put up with an awful relationship or bear that burden alone? Why do we accept that?

And, having watched my aunt stay with my uncle together for the sake of the financial stability, that's not good for children either. Their daughters - early to mid teens - are well, well aware their parents don't love each other, even if there's never any open hostility. What does that teach children? That money is more important than happiness or respect or self-respect? That it's normal or acceptable for a woman to be financially trapped?

We need lots of things - better approach to how working mothers are treated in terms of career progression, better and quicker access to financial support for separated parents, etc - but we really need to start teaching young women not to give up financial independence if they have children and we need there to be a social shift where it makes it the norm that both parents drop working hours to cover childcare, rather than just one, or it will forever be the norm that the lower-paid person (which is often the woman) puts themself in financial jeopardy which can take years to claw back from.

In principle I agree with every single thing you said. The issue is this thread descended into contempt,judgement,shame and sneering. Women staying are weak, have no dignity,have no self respect,aren't trying hard enough,taking the easy way out,dismissive comments like "staying for karate lessons" and so on.

Yes any woman should leave if she wants or needs to, but not doing so doesn't make them any "less". I can leave tomorrow if I wanted to. That's due to luck,opportunity and circumstances, it doesn't have anything to do with how strong I am or how much dignity I have.

Life is never perfect indefinitely though is it and no relationship is endlessly perfect either, the longer I live the more realistic I become. Its not as though you leave and all of a sudden things always improve. If you got together with someone else you'll be taking on their imperfections as well as their good sides and if you stay on your own with the kids there could be a part of you that is lonely and the kids could be sadder. That's why the 'she's staying for money' argument doesn't stack up as there are lots of things that make up a marriage and lots of things that break one down. Also divorce can be a very depressing thing to go through. If you can make what you already have better surely that would be better for everyone.

I would say that you shouldn’t run away at the first sign of trouble, but you shouldn’t wait until he beats you and have an affair to leave.

If you have spent most of the marriage “saving the marriage”, if you feel miserable all the time, if you live that relationship a day at a time, you need to accept that your relationship is dead and start putting your ducks in a row, because believe me… women leave when they are fed up and men when they find a replacement so the fact that you are plodding along for the sake of the children doesn’t mean that he will too. In fact, men have it so much easier after a split than women do.

This is a really good thread as LTB appears a lot on mumsnet.

Yes to finances being an issue. I think it is a definite issue but also the amount of other practical/emotional support someone has. It is much easier if there is other support. For me, I would literally have no-one (I do have friends but not in the same place in life with young dc) and I receive a lot of practical support from my husband. I look to other areas of life for seeking a bit of emotional support (friends/mumsnet/therapy). I have a lot of work to do on myself including the likelihood that I have an anxious/avoidant attachment issue. Developing new friendships/relationships would not be easy for someone like me and would be even more complicated with young dc in the picture.

I can see why it is not an easy decision for a lot of women (and some men). I find it a bit flippant when people say LTB (except in the case of abuse when it has to be done to protect children etc.). My own mother stayed in this situation and she should have left but in spite of the abuse she wanted to maintain a relatively comfortable (material) lifestyle.

Just to say, I certainly didn't intend to be 'sneering and contemptuous'. And the example of karate lessons is exactly that - a situation where the child won't be starving, but at the same time won't have any 'extras' like extracurricular lessons, tutors music etc.

The scenario of going from having money for 'extras' to bare minimum breadline or below.

I'm not sure everyone understands financial abuse unless they've suffered it.

Someone said we should teach our kids not to give up their financial independence.

That’s a tricky one. You don’t know you’re doing it til it’s happened - when I got pregnant I didn’t realise all the millions of ways that it would negatively affect my earning potential and my disposable income. I used to get promoted every couple of years. I haven’t been promoted now since I had my first child 4 years ago.

What seemed like an ok salary before now is laughably little to cater for an adult and two children. I’m not entitled to benefits AFAIK. Financial dependence crept up on me.

What if your husband leaves you?

All these SAHMs in crappy marriages with no earning capacity who seem to be 100% sure that their husband will never leave.

What if he leaves?

What if he actually goes and find someone who likes him rather than someone who is lying back and thinking of England?

So many women in their 50s get left for a younger model when they have given everything up. they’ve wasted their 30s and 40s. They could’ve retrained. They could’ve gotten their own pensions. They could’ve gotten entitlement to a council house and housing deposit but instead they stuck it out because they were so sure that they couldn’t afford to support themselves and guess what: they’re fucked now!

Lots of SAHMs on this thread in dead marriages are fooling themselves. You are one 28 year old interested coworker away from poverty.

And don’t fool yourself that he can’t find another maid of all work! There’s always another women willing to move in and do dishes!!!!

@DragonMovie

Someone said we should teach our kids not to give up their financial independence.

That’s a tricky one. You don’t know you’re doing it til it’s happened - when I got pregnant I didn’t realise all the millions of ways that it would negatively affect my earning potential and my disposable income. I used to get promoted every couple of years. I haven’t been promoted now since I had my first child 4 years ago.

What seemed like an ok salary before now is laughably little to cater for an adult and two children. I’m not entitled to benefits AFAIK. Financial dependence crept up on me.

I agree, and the best way to teach a girl not to be financially dependent is through avoiding becoming a SAHM. So many women give up jobs they love, become dependent, work around the needs of a husband who could have (or not) the same earning potential as them, they become miserable in their marriages and stay put, why ? Yep, because they saw their mum do the same, and also because other women around them expect the same from them.

@Almostwelsh - I think it’s pretty hard to live with someone you don’t love anyone. It leads to contempt and a horrendous atmosphere. My parents were unhappy and it was awful.