To think LTB is not always financially possible?

[BigupPemberleyMassive]

Especially with so many people struggling on dual incomes, is wanting the kids to be in a dual income, but frosty home unreasonable?

I'm not talking about things like alcoholism or violence, but threads where OP says husband flirted with a co worker by text etc. Obviously not acceptable, but if the choice is separate, move to a smaller more affordable place, an area with bad schools or stay and put up with it but kids have more financial stability?

Median UK salary is £30,000 and often less for women who have taken time out of paid work to have children.

AIBU to think sometimes financial reasons mean one can't LTB?

Or is it better to be struggling financially, and the kids can't do karate anymore or whatever, but you have dignity?

Putting up with the violence was easier tbh

Putting up with the violence yourself or putting up witnessing your ex hurting your kids?

Personally, my threshold of tolerance was one thing but Jesus, seeing my child getting hurt and damaged by ex’s behaviour was never better than whatever sofa surfing, going without heating and using food banks was to me.

I stayed for years thinking I couldn't afford life with 2 kids on my own. Turns out I'm much better off financially without him. Wish I'd done it years before. I don't think putting up with any level of abuse is worth the impact to your MH. I am totally scarred from living with an emotional abuser, I don't know if I will ever get over it or get him out of my head. It wasn't worth staying

@Willyoujustbequiet I'm sorry you went though that. How are things now for you and the DC?

I think it very much depends on your up bringing. In my situation my parents had a good equal relationship. There were usual grumbles of married life with numerous children of course but I have never, ever heard either parent be disrespectful to the other.
It's where your boundaries are set I think. For me I couldn't have contemplated allowing my children to live in an unpleasant household and when I asked the ex to leave I knew this would mean our lives would change immensely. However, I couldn't have done anything less for my children. Life was pretty horrendous financially for a few years, we'd only just moved and had a mortgage. So I returned to work full time, took in students, the children shared a room again, and I slept on a sofa bed for a few years. It's all about dignity and self respect. I had more self respect by finishing a ( non abuse) marriage and becoming the first single parent in both children's classes that was making us all unhappy than if I'd stayed in the marriage, with friends over for dinner at weekends, kids in clubs and holidays etc.
Also in my case I had the emotional support of parents and friends who could see the situation couldn't continue. I'd imagine without emotional support of those around you, if the message you were being given was 'put up and shut up' it would be much harder

Yeah, in theory they are, but in practice how many women don’t get a penny in maintenance?

In any event I’ve just done a child maintenance calculator for two children. DH would be paying me £800 a month. That’s not even one full nursery placement.

when i left my x, I ''had'' to be a single parent on benefits for a few years. I just couldn't pay for childcare and run a household on my minimum wages, so I went backwards for a few years. I accept that with frustration but what angered me was people too stupid to get out a calculator and figure out why I wasn't working. This is no disrespect to Xenia but I got friends of my mothers who'd never worked a day in their life unable to comprehend why I couldn't afford to do it all on my own. But able and willing and quick to judge!

I know half the responsibility was my x's whether I left him or not but you cannot make a financially abusive man meet his responsibilities. He was abusive in other ways and with cptsd I had to decide to hunker down for a few years, on benefits and wait for myself to heal a bit, the children to be a bit older and require less health care. Back on my feet now but it is astonishing how you can be in depths of despair, the worst chapter of your life and people will still judge you for having done the bravest hardest thing you ever did.

“ Or is it better to be struggling financially, and the kids can't do karate anymore or whatever, but you have dignity?”

Yes it is, 100%. Not easy but absolutely. There is nothing more damaging to kids than staying in a toxic household, it really is life changing.

What I meant about xenia was that if you earn enough you can make it work but it shouldn't be unfathomable that not everybody earns enough.

I was stupid, when I wsas upset about being in this sstage of my life, I used to square up to be judged on mumsnet and there was always somebody quick to tell me I could be doing it all better.

keyboard warriors.

@Lurking9to5

when i left my x, I ''had'' to be a single parent on benefits for a few years. I just couldn't pay for childcare and run a household on my minimum wages, so I went backwards for a few years. I accept that with frustration but what angered me was people too stupid to get out a calculator and figure out why I wasn't working. This is no disrespect to Xenia but I got friends of my mothers who'd never worked a day in their life unable to comprehend why I couldn't afford to do it all on my own. But able and willing and quick to judge! I know half the responsibility was my x's whether I left him or not but you cannot make a financially abusive man meet his responsibilities. He was abusive in other ways and with cptsd I had to decide to hunker down for a few years, on benefits and wait for myself to heal a bit, the children to be a bit older and require less health care. Back on my feet now but it is astonishing how you can be in depths of despair, the worst chapter of your life and people will still judge you for having done the bravest hardest thing you ever did.

I’ve also spent a few years on benefits after leaving an abusive relationship, and also had the same amount of judgment. I felt shit enough as it was (also have diagnosed CPTSD), they made feel even worse.

People who haven’t been abused don’t understand just how long it takes to get your head on straight after being in a fog, and then when you do, the impact of the abuse floors you like a fucking freight train.

A lot of people also don’t under how toothless the CMS are. They’re supposed to get a Liability Order against my ex every 6 months (because he doesn’t pay), in reality they only did that twice, and only because I was on the phone every week hassling them. After a year, I gave up. I occasionally log into my CMS account to see they’ve calculated what he owes per month and what his debt is (£8,000) but they just sit on their arses doing fuck all about it.

@GeneLovesJezebel

It’s not. And having seen £20,000.00 quoted for solicitor fees earlier, I’m thinking of sticking with it.

Just fun, to run up bills of £20k means a very acrimonious divorce and using legal route for everything. I divorced last year. Petitioned on grounds of unreasonable behaviour. Cost us around £1800 inc vat between us. I used government site to petition which is so easy. Court cost £550 all in as the basic costs. Rest was on solicitors to do legal “words” for our consent order based on agreement and declaration of finances we made to each other. The difference between £20k and our less than £2k was down to my determination not to engage in acrimonious behaviour and hold off on my anger and hurt until it was all completed, and my ex’s rather tight fisted approach to not wanting to spend on solicitors for anything when we could do it ourselves. It was a rather shockingly easy thing to do - easier than doing a POA document if you ask me. Selling and buying homes was altogether more stressful, expensive and time consuming and painful experience and left me very down. But that’s another story, So, it’s not the cost of divorce to put you off - if you genuinely can’t afford those legal fees you can apply for means tested help from government to cover .

But I do agree with OP that is the cost of each having less assets after the divorce - if you aren’t fortunate enough to be able to afford to buy or rent 2 homes and are already struggling then yes it is difficult, stressful and scary and I can understand people saying that staying in a marriage is the lesser of 2 evils.

I was in a emotionally abusive relationship with two kids. When we split (I got ex to think it was his idea) I stayed in house (changed locks) I was on a low income as was ex so maintenance was only £40 a month but I applied for benefits and discovered I was entitled to £800 a month! This meant with wage too I had breathing space as I could cover bills and food. I didn't stay on benefits long term as circumstances changed but it's worth getting advice as you may be better off than you think. Also we did divorce ourselves. The forms are on line youfill them in and send to courts. Don't know if it's gone up but think it was around £100.

I think it depends so much on the relationship but what I think people on mn do forget is that life is hard, it's impossible to be happy all the time, with ourselves let alone with our significant other. People make mistakes, people get fed up sometimes. Also I don't believe people can always feel 'in love' with their dh or dw over a very long relationship, feelings do ebb and flow as we grow and develop. It has been my experience that - as long as there is no violence, cheating or other abuse - if you hang around and get on with it feelings do come back. Not easy at the time if you want to leave as I have wanted many times!!

@Overit37

I think it depends so much on the relationship but what I think people on mn do forget is that life is hard, it's impossible to be happy all the time, with ourselves let alone with our significant other. People make mistakes, people get fed up sometimes. Also I don't believe people can always feel 'in love' with their dh or dw over a very long relationship, feelings do ebb and flow as we grow and develop. It has been my experience that - as long as there is no violence, cheating or other abuse - if you hang around and get on with it feelings do come back. Not easy at the time if you want to leave as I have wanted many times!!

My Grandparents have been married for 60 years and have weathered some horrific events (including the death of their 6 month old son when they were just 17 and 19).

Gran will often say that no, she hasn’t loved and liked my Grandad every day of those 60 years, and vice versa, but it’s only ever been one at a time - if they’d both fallen out of like/love with each other at the same time, they would probably have divorced. It’s a case of pulling together, or carrying each other when the other one can’t walk. People change over time, due to ageing, due to life events, and you either fall in love with every version of the person you married, or you dont.

And more recently that she feels fortunate to have a man who is in no way abusive, because they seem to be few and far between these days.

And Gran hasn’t stayed for financial reasons either - she’s worked full time since she was 16, worked until a few days before she gave birth, went back to work ASAP and whilst they always paid a proportional amount of bills each and have joint savings and investments, she is very money savvy and has a lot squirrelled away that my Grandad doesn’t know about So she could have walked away at any point, as she’s not one to give a crap about social norms either.

I agree that it’s never actually impossible to leave but can be difficult. There are definitely some women who stay in bad relationships (and expose their children to them) for their own financial comfort. However there is no doubt it can be very difficult to leave as well and some women would be left struggling financially.

I left my ex - I was the main earner but with no childcare I ended up on benefits. I sorted it out though and am financially much better off now.

I think it's easy to judge when you're in a comfortable enough position where there are plenty of steps down or your husband is on a high wage and half decent so there's no risk of him going self employed on 1k a month or benefits and working cash in hand so you get sweet fuck all.

For some people going down means homelessness,refuge, b&b's etc. Deciding between heating and food. It's completely deluded and unrealistic to claim it won't affect the children . Maybe not as much as living with abuse(but OP did say she's not talking about abusive households) but there are proven negative effects for living in poverty, lack of stability etc. It's a hard decision to make,especially for women who starved and froze in winter as kids and don't want the same to their children.

It's also incredibly insulting,demeaning and sneery to talk about karate and ballet vs dignity. It completely dismisses women in poor financial situations, disabled women, women who are here on a spousal visa , carers for disabled children and so on.

Yes a lot of women can make it, plenty have lost everything including their children. Yes safe ,happy and sane is better. But the fear is real. The uncertainty is real. The risk is real. You only know you made it ,that it was possible and that it's ok only when you're on the other side,and even then sometimes it is not ok but you just have to keep going.It's not always so black and white though and people who insist it is, are either incredibly privileged or of the "so and so climbed Everest with only one leg so why can't you?" Types.

If they’re abusive, it’s always going to be better to leave. Abuse can have such a corrosive effect on everyone involved - the children as well as the person being abused - that it’s better to have less money and control your own life.

I can see your point re flirty texts or even cheating if the person behaves like a normal, reasonable person day to day. In that case, it’s possible to stay in the same household, even if privately between the adults the romantic and sexual relationship is over, until kids are grown up. But only if behaviour is normal and friendly.

It is totally ridiculous to think of leaving with your children and living in your car in a situation where your partner is not abusive. If you tried that social services would remove the children from your care and send them to live with their father. Family court would see a stable father with a home vs an unstable homeless mother. No brainer.

Noone is going to do that unless they are in fear for their lives. And women's refuges are for such women, not women who have just grown to dislike their partner but have no money.

@DragonMovie

I think there’s an amount of money that you can have where you 1. Can’t afford to raise your children alone (eg rent childcare food) and 2. Also don’t qualify for any financial help/benefits.

So I think it can be very very hard to leave.

I might be wrong? Can someone else advise?

You're right.

The relentless erosion of benefit levels over the last 10 years has disproportionately affected women imo. Single parents are more likely to be on benefits than couples, and the vast majority of those are women.

The earnings threshold at which entitlement ceases is too low to live on imo. You get about £850 a month for an adult and 2 children, and you're likely to have to pay a good chunck towards your rent and council tax out of that, plus all the usual bills.

The benefit cap is crippling and leaves less than £500 a month for everything, including a contribution to rent, if you're renting privately in much of the SE. You have to earn the equivalnt of 16 hours x min wage to be exempt from the cap.

Thankfully, there is an exemption if you or your partner have earned the equivalent of 16 hours x NMW for 9 months out of the previous year, and this holds good even if that "partner" is now your ex. A lot of people, including some of my fellow benefit advisers, don't realise that your ex's earnings count if you've only recently split.

It is very hard, unless you have friends/family who can help, or savings. It means food banks and charity shops, and watching every penny. But this is what people voted for, the bastards.

I have a friend in this position. Abusive partner. She tried to leave, she did in fact leave for a short while but it's absolutely impossible from what I could see. Entitled to so little due to having just enough assets not to qualify for any legal help. The only option for housing would be a hostel.

Partner made it very clear she would have to fight him for the smallest thing. Not married so only entitled to the house.

She had to leave the children. It just didn't work in anyway. She moved back and I think is biding her time.

Absolutely this is a horrendous situation for the children and her to be in. But the system is designed against her. I was shocked and angry there was so little help.

I left my ex husband when I had no job. Rented a flat and lived on benefits for a while. I was much happier.

@Idontwanna I agree with everything you’ve said especially the last bit.

@TheFirstSpiderMan has she checked what e benefits she's entitled to if she had the children with her though?

Agree entirely Idontwanna. All these sneary posts about dignity. The number one predictor of negative outcomes for children is growing up in poverty. Regaining your dignity is a self-indulgence that many women chose not to take if it means that their kids are growing up in vastly more constrained financial circumstances. When you’re childless, it’s fine if you want to sacrifice your financial security for your principles but when you have kids, you should take them into account.

@TheBigDilemma

Violence against me. It's all very well saying sofa surf or whatever but you can't with disabled children with aids/adaptations etc...

@JanglyBeads They are much better than they were thank you