Identity politics in secondary school

[OrchidCarer]

Please be gentle because I’m trying to work out how I feel about this issue.

I have 3 boys at secondary school. A new Head started in September. Since then I’ve noticed the school has increased the amount of teaching time given over to identity politics.

For example:

• Students have special science lessons on LGBTQ+ Scientists. Surely they shouldn’t be recognised for their sexuality but for their achievements? Why is their sexuality even relevant to their job?
• Every subject studies load of ‘Black History’ type subjects – so far my Y9 kid has studied slavery, the slave trade, the Windrush generation this year. This is in history, geography, English. These are presented in a way that makes all black people victims and all white people oppressors. The kids pick up on this and their friendship groups form around race (school is about 30% black, 65% white, 5% other ethnicities).
• Assemblies all the time about how women are downtrodden, oppressed, victims and men are the aggressors, perpetrators. Female dominated classes with a female teacher discussing the patriarchy and similar themes.

I am uncomfortable about all of this division. We are all just human. There is a big difference between educating about past prejudice and forcing stereotypes on kids now.

Concerns

• White straight boys are never in the oppressed group, so are constantly told they are the bad guys. My sons have given up trying to prove everyone wrong – the narrative against them is too strong. My eldest rails at home about the unfairness of it all, how he’s depressed, he can’t do right because he’s a straight white guy, he just wants to go and fight in Ukraine where he’ll be allowed to be a man, doesn’t care if he dies. It’s exhausting to deal with.
• Push towards the far right. If you watch slightly right-wing content, algorithms recommend more. There is a danger that disenchanted boys will turn for comfort to online creators who exploit their anger and encourage sexist, racist and homophobic attitudes.
• Where is the evidence that these interventions make the ‘oppressed’ groups feel supported?
• Women, queer people, and people of colour need allies. We are all on the same side, in the end, and this divisive approach is having the opposite effect to the one intended.

There is a real taboo about saying these things. I raised the LGBTQ+ scientists question and got a dramatically long and patronising lecture in an email back again as though I was the bad guy.

Maybe I am being unreasonable?

Is there anything that I can do or do I just have to watch it all unfold?

@TomPInch

Yeah, it's that dualistic hierarchy that comes out of marx. But it also has lots of elements from other theoretical systems as well, and in important ways it's very opposed to certain ideas of Marx.

I think the term is pretty confusing for a lot of people, I usually call it identity politics. There are some other terms people use, but unfortunately whatever term one uses there will be people who come along to dispute that there is any such ideology around.

Sorry OP but surely you know deep down that your son learning that some scientists are gay isn’t the true cause of him wanting to go and fight in Ukraine?

I suspect his issues are at home and you can’t accept this so are placing the blame at school. I also suspect that he’s still taught far more about non identity related themes than not and that when identity is is involved it’s mainly about white males.

Everyone who isn’t a straight white male has been taught nothing but straight white male topics for hundreds of years. We didn’t all run off the fight and die in foreign wars in protest.

Do things to help improve your son’s self esteem rather than blaming the school for his mental health issues and complaining that he has to hear about people who aren’t straight white men (aka a lot of people on planet Earth).

About 'cultural Marxism' .I'm not sure what this term means.

It's a Far Right anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.

*You can’t just say “we’re all human, so why do we need to talk about race/sexuality/gender?” because that’s not reality, people have and do suffer because they’re not straight white males and being a fellow human matters not one bit.

If your sons feel uncomfortable with being taught how straight white males have dominated, harassed, brutalised etc women and marginalised groups then good, that’s the point.*

Agree with this. Those who fail history are doomed to repeat it.

@MangyInseam

I'd be interested to know what part of it you think doesn't derive from Marxist fundamentals.

For me the critical point is the denial that people can be objective or fair. Anyone who isn't part of the oppressed group is blind to the oppression. It's just the same as Marx's superstructure: the exploiters are blind, therefore they must be forced or eliminated. Just forget about 300 years of Western intellectual tradition that holds the opposite.

I have mixed race children and I dread them going to school and being fed this victim nonsense. We're planning to go private so we have more control about where we send them and the culture they're taught. As a mixed race household we very much believe we have more in common than what divides us and wd should move forward as one country. It's politically incorrect now but we're still with Martin Luther King on race.

It's politically incorrect now but we're still with Martin Luther King on race.

Same. The hatred expressed towards certain groups of people on this thread is revolting and unbelievably ignorant.

@HollyGoLoudly1

*You can’t just say “we’re all human, so why do we need to talk about race/sexuality/gender?” because that’s not reality, people have and do suffer because they’re not straight white males and being a fellow human matters not one bit.

If your sons feel uncomfortable with being taught how straight white males have dominated, harassed, brutalised etc women and marginalised groups then good, that’s the point.*

Agree with this. Those who fail history are doomed to repeat it.

Have other cultures not done the same to women?

@TomPinch

About 'cultural Marxism'.

I'm not sure what this term means. Marx had the idea that societies' belief systems are dictated by the economic power in the society, ie, it forces people to think a certain way specifically that a privileged group will oppress the other until the other rises up. In more recent times that idea has been adopted by other groups such as feminists and more recent by critical race theory. The sociologist Laurie Taylor on Radio 4 has discussed this from time to time and it's Marxist origin. Hence the hypothesis of patriarchy and of white privilege, ie, society is biased towards whites / men / heterosexuals and so on. I suppose it must mean that. But as amiable Boomer lefties on the BBC take this view, I think everyone ought to accept it.

Marx had no evidence to support his theory (which ended in bloody disaster anyway) and I wonder if the above hypotheses will have the same effect.

How do you identify a minority group? Who does this? How much protection does each group deserve? Who decides that? How do you decide if any individual person fits into such a group? Who decides? Ultimately there's no objective way to do this, meaning it gets sorted out by a power struggle, ie, Revolution. History is particularly important because whoever controls the present controls the past, and whoever controls the past controls the future.

Remember animal farm. Marxism is scary imo

@Franca123

I have mixed race children and I dread them going to school and being fed this victim nonsense. We're planning to go private so we have more control about where we send them and the culture they're taught. As a mixed race household we very much believe we have more in common than what divides us and wd should move forward as one country. It's politically incorrect now but we're still with Martin Luther King on race.

This post doesn't make any sense. Why would your child be fed with a victim mentality because they are mixed race.

Remember animal farm. Marxism is scary imo
No need to remember Animal Farm. Talk to anyone who grew up in a Soviet country.

OP, I don't see the correlation or the relationship between your son wanting to go and fight in Ukraine and being taught the following at school:

LGBT scientist
Black hsitory
History of oppression against women.

Do you think you may be contributing to your son's difficulties or insecurities?

@Lambkin689

Remember animal farm. Marxism is scary imo No need to remember Animal Farm. Talk to anyone who grew up in a Soviet country.

That as well

We studied 1984 and Animal Farm and they left an impression and did Russian Revolution in history

If OPs son is not being taught about any positive straight white male role models at school is it at all surprising that he has found one in the president and people of Ukraine? Straight white male of fairly normal background standing up to an evil dictator - seems like a good role model for her son - obviously he is only a child and shouldn’t fight and hopefully there will be no war when he is an adult but how is expressing a desire to emulate people heroically defending democracy considered a sign the OP has failed at parenting?

It worries me that the OPs sons schools friendships appear divided on race lines - clearly whatever the school are doing to teach race history and diversity are not working if this is the case. Inclusion should be the aim. Children need role models they can identify with by race or class or nationality so we need to teach Tubman and wilberfoce, not just Tubman and paint all white males as evil.

I was going to say you are not being unreasonable but it seems like they are covering all bases talking about sex based oppression and feminism, is to be applauded, not many places would touch that now days.

@MarshmallowSwede I am shocked at your posts. White people (often men) have done horrid things in the past yes. This should be taught. No blame however falls on todays children. I don’t know about Sweden but working class white boys do the worst in most exams in the uk and are certainly a disadvantaged group educationally.

And you saying your husband and those like him will be ok because he’s a white western man. That’s a touch tone deaf don’t you think? I fear for the people of Sweden right now and hope that in a few months time your husband hasn’t had to pick up a gun to defend you and your country.

[quote TomPinch]@MangyInseam

I'd be interested to know what part of it you think doesn't derive from Marxist fundamentals.

For me the critical point is the denial that people can be objective or fair. Anyone who isn't part of the oppressed group is blind to the oppression. It's just the same as Marx's superstructure: the exploiters are blind, therefore they must be forced or eliminated. Just forget about 300 years of Western intellectual tradition that holds the opposite.[/quote]
I am not sure how anyone could think they are compatible at all. Have you read marx or about classical marxism?

In Marx the relationship between classes is based in materiality. You have the people who own the means of production and the people who sell their labour. It isn't about some kind of identity group or even perception of that. It's about the functional material consequences of being a capital owner as opposed to a worker and how wealth and power operate materially.

One of the huge differences between marxism and identity politics is the latter is largely abstract, it deals in perceptions, in essences, it often completely neglects the material causes of the disparities it sees, in fact in a lot of cases it doesn't even seem to recognize that it has to ground effects in material causes.

Without materialism and without class it's not marxism, it's something else. If you try reading a real marxist, someone like Adolph Reed say, you see very quickly they have no time for identity politics.

What identity politics or cultural marxism or successor ideology or whatever you want to call it does have from Marxism is mainly around certain kinds of hierarchies. But it also borrows as much or more from other 20th century movements like postmodernism which are certainly not marxist.

Ooh a very interesting thread. I think it sums up how I feel about identity politics generally - very much on the fence. Yes we should be honest about inequalities in our society, both current and historically. But we also need to ensure we're not alienating any one group, even if it's a group not generally thought of as oppressed.

To the PP who said we don't need to worry about white men - well okay maybe we don't need to overly worry about white men as a general population group.

But we do need to worry about individual white (straight) teenage boys, and ensure they have pride, purpose and role models. Otherwise we're heading for some very angry, disenfranchised young men.

@LeoOliver The modern view is that everything is set against non white people and they can't get ahead. This is not a believe that I think will benefit my mixed race children. I see it as a self fulfilling prophecy. I used to work in a very woke FTSE100 company. They attributed different believes and characteristics to people based on their skin colour. I'm just not allowing my children to be told that on a daily basis by teachers.

"To the PP who said we don't need to worry about white men - well okay maybe we don't need to overly worry about white men as a general population group.

But we do need to worry about individual white (straight) teenage boys, and ensure they have pride, purpose and role models. Otherwise we're heading for some very angry, disenfranchised young men."

this

if young white men like OPs sons are coming from school thinking all they can be are oppressive evil sexist racist then we have a big problem

Some of the kids I feel most sorry for are the mixed race ones esp with a white parent who doesn't think racism even exists or indeed that they can't be racist by virtue of having mixed kids. I'm mixed and every so often I thank god that my mother is the black parent.

[quote Cbtb]@MarshmallowSwede I am shocked at your posts. White people (often men) have done horrid things in the past yes. This should be taught. No blame however falls on todays children. I don’t know about Sweden but working class white boys do the worst in most exams in the uk and are certainly a disadvantaged group educationally.

And you saying your husband and those like him will be ok because he’s a white western man. That’s a touch tone deaf don’t you think? I fear for the people of Sweden right now and hope that in a few months time your husband hasn’t had to pick up a gun to defend you and your country.[/quote]
Damn right! Jeez talk about ignorant and tone deaf! Marshmallow needs to educate themselves!

@Iggly

These are presented in a way that makes all black people victims and all white people oppressors

Well I’m not sure how else you would present slavery….. or Windrush.

It’s uncomfortable because it touches on the fact that people were treated in a certain way because of the colour their skin, as simple as that.

That’s a very painful difficult thing to understand. Some end up pretty defensive about it and see it as an attack on them. When really, the purpose of teaching should be to learn lessons from our history.
In terms of the push to the far right, the best you can do is to disrupt what they’re watching on YouTube etc to mess with the algorithms. Limit the time on YouTube/social media if you can. Keep talking to them.

These lessons sound as if they are from the Whoopie Goldberg school of thought. She doesn't know what racism is and she is only interested in sounding off about black history. If slavery is to be taught, you have to go back to its roots. You should study black participation in the trade, Arab participation if the trade and white participation. No one has anything to brag about when it comes to slavery except maybe white people who ended it. And can it be true that all white people were slavers and oppressors? Course not. As a matter of fact that's a racist attitude on display it judges a whole group by the colour of their skin. As for LGBT+ scientists, when I got my Covid vaccine I never asked if the scientists who produced it were gay or not. That's their business. But if teachers insist on the LGBT+ description then they must do the same for straight scientists or else it's going to sound as if only LGBT people are scientists or that the most important thing about them is that they are gay. I find it distressing that any youngster should come out of school feeling he's been identified as an evil oppressor, especially if this idea is affecting for the worst relationships amongst the children. Nothing like a bit of wokery for forcing people to the right. And it is shocking that it is happening in schools.

I remember when Y8s were taught about slave trade and the history book which said the Arabs took Africans as slaves but they were the good guys because the slaves could buy their freedom but surely this was a tad simplistic and pc?