Identity politics in secondary school

[OrchidCarer]

Please be gentle because I’m trying to work out how I feel about this issue.

I have 3 boys at secondary school. A new Head started in September. Since then I’ve noticed the school has increased the amount of teaching time given over to identity politics.

For example:

• Students have special science lessons on LGBTQ+ Scientists. Surely they shouldn’t be recognised for their sexuality but for their achievements? Why is their sexuality even relevant to their job?
• Every subject studies load of ‘Black History’ type subjects – so far my Y9 kid has studied slavery, the slave trade, the Windrush generation this year. This is in history, geography, English. These are presented in a way that makes all black people victims and all white people oppressors. The kids pick up on this and their friendship groups form around race (school is about 30% black, 65% white, 5% other ethnicities).
• Assemblies all the time about how women are downtrodden, oppressed, victims and men are the aggressors, perpetrators. Female dominated classes with a female teacher discussing the patriarchy and similar themes.

I am uncomfortable about all of this division. We are all just human. There is a big difference between educating about past prejudice and forcing stereotypes on kids now.

Concerns

• White straight boys are never in the oppressed group, so are constantly told they are the bad guys. My sons have given up trying to prove everyone wrong – the narrative against them is too strong. My eldest rails at home about the unfairness of it all, how he’s depressed, he can’t do right because he’s a straight white guy, he just wants to go and fight in Ukraine where he’ll be allowed to be a man, doesn’t care if he dies. It’s exhausting to deal with.
• Push towards the far right. If you watch slightly right-wing content, algorithms recommend more. There is a danger that disenchanted boys will turn for comfort to online creators who exploit their anger and encourage sexist, racist and homophobic attitudes.
• Where is the evidence that these interventions make the ‘oppressed’ groups feel supported?
• Women, queer people, and people of colour need allies. We are all on the same side, in the end, and this divisive approach is having the opposite effect to the one intended.

There is a real taboo about saying these things. I raised the LGBTQ+ scientists question and got a dramatically long and patronising lecture in an email back again as though I was the bad guy.

Maybe I am being unreasonable?

Is there anything that I can do or do I just have to watch it all unfold?

@OnceuponaRainbow18

Fed up of black history being all doom and gloom And slavery.

There’s so much fantastic black history which should be the focus

It's not all doom and gloom at my kid's schools. The celebrate heroes, those who's achieved great things. We watched Hidden Figures because my DS was recommended it at school. His BH month English project this year was on modern days heroes. My DCs seem to understand that their black friends will have more challenges on life than them. So far, luckily, they haven't also started to feel like they are always the "bad" ones causing those challenges.

@pancakesandsyrupplease

That’s lovely to hear

PS whoever rolled their eyes a 'mother of sons', I also have a daughter - just not at this school.

Yes, that was me. So you're more concerned about poor menz and white fragility than the rampant misogyny that is so rife nowadays which affects your daughter? Interesting. If you want to help your sons, teach them some resilience because they seem rather sensitive if they're so adversely affected by being taught some home truths.

@Migrainesbythedozen

I couldn't agree more with what you've said. I find it very worrying, especially when people are praising this as progression right under our noses.

Oh how terrible. White children learning the truth about the actions of white supremacy within global history. It must end immediately. This is a travesty.

Again… for those in the back.

White men will be ok. They will make sure they are ok before any other group. All this hand wringing because they are learning about black history and Lgb?

Im a white Swede as is my husband.. probably some of the most privileged white ppl imaginable! I don’t see what there is to be concerned about because white men feel disenfranchised.

The same disenfranchised they have dealt non white people for centuries? Yeah..they will be ok.

I can’t find the energy to feel bad for white men. They alway find a way to be fine.

I find it funny now that none white people are finally getting more recognition and people working to make society better for all.. all
Of a sudden the white men are bothered and their feelings are hurt?

It’s laughable. I will not waste my time nor energy advocating for or fighting the battles of white men. Their precious fee fees will have to get over it.

I can’t even imagine my husband discussing feeling disenfranchised.. do you know why? Because he knows as a white western male it’s still his world. So why all this crying and acting like all of a sudden white men are the victims?

White men are just scared they will be treated the way they have treated everyone who isn’t them.

Again. I can’t muster up the energy nor concern to bother with a fight on their behalf. They would slaughter us all before they let themselves be anything other than on top.. so I suggest everyone sit this one out and let the white men get therapy to work out why not being able to treat other people like shit hurts their feelings.

🙄

You're aware of some of the nuances, and you have a close relationship with your DS and are able and willing to talk to him.

Just stick with him. Keep talking. He'll leave school soon enough. Your influence on him is far greater than school's as you are a present parent.

These issues aren't black and white (pardon the pun) for many straight, white people. It can take some mental gymnastics to see things in a different light. Your DS's instinct is to feel attacked. You can disabuse him of this without it turning into a slinging match - and also advise him that giving into the instinct to be "manly" about it all is counterproductive to all concerned, especially him.

@MarshmallowSwede

Again… for those in the back.

White men will be ok. They will make sure they are ok before any other group. All this hand wringing because they are learning about black history and Lgb?

Im a white Swede as is my husband.. probably some of the most privileged white ppl imaginable! I don’t see what there is to be concerned about because white men feel disenfranchised.

The same disenfranchised they have dealt non white people for centuries? Yeah..they will be ok.

I can’t find the energy to feel bad for white men. They alway find a way to be fine.

I find it funny now that none white people are finally getting more recognition and people working to make society better for all.. all
Of a sudden the white men are bothered and their feelings are hurt?

It’s laughable. I will not waste my time nor energy advocating for or fighting the battles of white men. Their precious fee fees will have to get over it.

I can’t even imagine my husband discussing feeling disenfranchised.. do you know why? Because he knows as a white western male it’s still his world. So why all this crying and acting like all of a sudden white men are the victims?

White men are just scared they will be treated the way they have treated everyone who isn’t them.

Again. I can’t muster up the energy nor concern to bother with a fight on their behalf. They would slaughter us all before they let themselves be anything other than on top.. so I suggest everyone sit this one out and let the white men get therapy to work out why not being able to treat other people like shit hurts their feelings.

🙄

I rather agree with @MarshmallowSwede

@MarshmallowSwede

Again… for those in the back.

White men will be ok. They will make sure they are ok before any other group. All this hand wringing because they are learning about black history and Lgb?

Im a white Swede as is my husband.. probably some of the most privileged white ppl imaginable! I don’t see what there is to be concerned about because white men feel disenfranchised.

The same disenfranchised they have dealt non white people for centuries? Yeah..they will be ok.

I can’t find the energy to feel bad for white men. They alway find a way to be fine.

I find it funny now that none white people are finally getting more recognition and people working to make society better for all.. all
Of a sudden the white men are bothered and their feelings are hurt?

It’s laughable. I will not waste my time nor energy advocating for or fighting the battles of white men. Their precious fee fees will have to get over it.

I can’t even imagine my husband discussing feeling disenfranchised.. do you know why? Because he knows as a white western male it’s still his world. So why all this crying and acting like all of a sudden white men are the victims?

White men are just scared they will be treated the way they have treated everyone who isn’t them.

Again. I can’t muster up the energy nor concern to bother with a fight on their behalf. They would slaughter us all before they let themselves be anything other than on top.. so I suggest everyone sit this one out and let the white men get therapy to work out why not being able to treat other people like shit hurts their feelings.

🙄

The way you are putting people in boxes is chilling.

The way you are putting people in boxes is chilling.

I agree. It's scary to see people expressing hatred towards others on the basis of their skin colour/sex/membership of a demographic.

@MangyInseam

Why wouldn't there be any actual Marxists on MN? There are quite a lot of people here, and marxists aren't all that rare, I know a couple in real life.

Frankly I'd take an actual marxist over an id pol shill any day. Cultural marxism might not be the most accurate term, but there certainly are lots of people here who take that viewpoint whatever they call themselves. I refuse to call them ant-racists given that I think they are pretty much race essentialists.

I'm a Marxist!

Cultural Marxism is an anti-Semitic theory, just in case you weren't aware.

Your son’s response to being taught factual history is that he’ll go and fight and die in Ukraine and you think the headteacher is the problem? Look closer to home tbh.

I can tell you that whether secondary schools tend to teach these topics or not, friendship groups will predominantly form according to shared experiences and that will include experiences such as homophobia, racism, religion, etc.

Children in primary school recognise those who share similarities- physical or otherwise she gravitate towards each other.

Your post reminds me of female CEO who came to speak at a conference for females trying to get into a male-dominated area and proceeded to tell us how her young sons were so worried about what their future would look like as white men when “all the attention seems to be on progression for women”.

None of the things you’ve mentioned should come as a shock to a child in secondary school whose parent is the least bit conscious about our world today.

Your child should be helped to understand that it’s not an attack on him ( because he’s not old enough to have done any of those things) but it’s to help everyone to understand our part in creating a fair society for everyone.

He should take comfort in the fact that as a white male, the odds are signify stacked in his father.

Welcome to the world of diversity, tell people how different they all are, tell them to pick a box which comes with instructions on how to behave, who hates them, what they should be interested in and stick with other people in their box because everyone else will attack them and oppress them because they are victims. Everyone will then go on about how their box is the most oppressed and victimised group ever and everyone else is privileged!

We could spend the time raising people up, getting them engaged with everything and everyone they want to be engaged with because they find it interesting, admirable etc. why are we telling black people they need black role models? Think about what this is really saying. You shouldn’t aspire to be like a white person because you’ll never make it, let’s look at what black people can do etc.

Boo hoo.. I put white western men in a box.

What’s chilling is them being upset that they can’t treat people who aren’t white males like dirt. What’s chilling is their feelings being hurt and them being attacked by speaking about facts from history. I shouldn’t get mad and upset when people say Vikings were terrible and killed and raped and pillaged. I don’t get upset because that is true and they did raid and kill many people. They did commit sexual violence on women they came upon and took women as slaves. I’m not angry if anyone brings this up .. it’s true history.

White men will be ok. And If they aren’t ok then that’s not really my problem is it? I’m married to a white Swedish man.. I’m also a white Swede. I’ve identified the box I belong to. We all belong to multiple boxes.

No one else seems to be upset other than white men (and women who feel like their duty is to protect men .. sad). Again.. I don’t care how attacked white men feel.

There are plenty of therapists to help them work thru their guilt and their white savior complex. Not my problem.. I pay my taxes to the Swedish government so Swedish men who have hurt feelings can go sort that out like adults.

What I’m not going to do is hand wring and act like white men are victims of anything. They just don’t like being called out on their bullshit. And guess what.. oh well.

Have they or have they not done a lot of fucked up things in the past? Yes.. and we are allowed to speak about it. Their guilt is for them to deal with. No one is forcing them feel guilty. My husband doesn’t feel bad about slavery.. and he’s a white male. We don’t have to ignore history because white men are mad and sad... just like they have ran roughshod over everyone else.. well we can talk about those injustices.

But if you’re worried about white men.. we’ll let me tell you about white women. So you want to hand wring about the feelings of fragile white western men.. well then let’s discuss the role white western women have played in racism and the disenfranchisement of black and other none white peoples.

Do you want to discuss that then ladies? Who birthed white men and who raised them and who benefitted from them mistreating and stealing the land of others?

Do you want to discuss this? Your own complacency and complicit participation in all of this? I’m including myself as a white western woman as well.. are we ready to discuss our hand in all of this?

Because.. newsflash. White men were not out in the world doing their nonsense without us cheering them on and directly benefiting from them treating non white people like shit! White women were right next to white men.

White western women we like to pretend we were helpless and had no hand in the bullshit our men were out doing to others.. but oh no! We benefited and batted not an eyelid.

Somehow people want to act like white women were just innocent and helpless.. but since you brought it up. You’re right.. let’s not place all the blame on white men. White women.. we also get a lions share of the blame. Happy now?

So you are right.. let’s not just blame white men. White women.. we too should have 50% of the blame.

Shall we talk about that instead ladies? Then we can spare the feelings of white men today.

And British imperialist friends.. it is black history month in your former colony, now known as the United States of America. Pretty sure the African Americans consider it important to discuss their history as it relates to them in America.

I will let my black American friends know that the feelings of white European men are just as hurt as white Americans. Maybe we can break out the tiny violins for a global concert to benefit white western men and their hurt feelings.

@MarshmallowSwede

Boo hoo.. I put white western men in a box.

What’s chilling is them being upset that they can’t treat people who aren’t white males like dirt. What’s chilling is their feelings being hurt and them being attacked by speaking about facts from history. I shouldn’t get mad and upset when people say Vikings were terrible and killed and raped and pillaged. I don’t get upset because that is true and they did raid and kill many people. They did commit sexual violence on women they came upon and took women as slaves. I’m not angry if anyone brings this up .. it’s true history.

White men will be ok. And If they aren’t ok then that’s not really my problem is it? I’m married to a white Swedish man.. I’m also a white Swede. I’ve identified the box I belong to. We all belong to multiple boxes.

No one else seems to be upset other than white men (and women who feel like their duty is to protect men .. sad). Again.. I don’t care how attacked white men feel.

There are plenty of therapists to help them work thru their guilt and their white savior complex. Not my problem.. I pay my taxes to the Swedish government so Swedish men who have hurt feelings can go sort that out like adults.

What I’m not going to do is hand wring and act like white men are victims of anything. They just don’t like being called out on their bullshit. And guess what.. oh well.

Have they or have they not done a lot of fucked up things in the past? Yes.. and we are allowed to speak about it. Their guilt is for them to deal with. No one is forcing them feel guilty. My husband doesn’t feel bad about slavery.. and he’s a white male. We don’t have to ignore history because white men are mad and sad... just like they have ran roughshod over everyone else.. well we can talk about those injustices.

But if you’re worried about white men.. we’ll let me tell you about white women. So you want to hand wring about the feelings of fragile white western men.. well then let’s discuss the role white western women have played in racism and the disenfranchisement of black and other none white peoples.

Do you want to discuss that then ladies? Who birthed white men and who raised them and who benefitted from them mistreating and stealing the land of others?

Do you want to discuss this? Your own complacency and complicit participation in all of this? I’m including myself as a white western woman as well.. are we ready to discuss our hand in all of this?

Because.. newsflash. White men were not out in the world doing their nonsense without us cheering them on and directly benefiting from them treating non white people like shit! White women were right next to white men.

White western women we like to pretend we were helpless and had no hand in the bullshit our men were out doing to others.. but oh no! We benefited and batted not an eyelid.

Somehow people want to act like white women were just innocent and helpless.. but since you brought it up. You’re right.. let’s not place all the blame on white men. White women.. we also get a lions share of the blame. Happy now?

So you are right.. let’s not just blame white men. White women.. we too should have 50% of the blame.

Shall we talk about that instead ladies? Then we can spare the feelings of white men today.

And British imperialist friends.. it is black history month in your former colony, now known as the United States of America. Pretty sure the African Americans consider it important to discuss their history as it relates to them in America.

I will let my black American friends know that the feelings of white European men are just as hurt as white Americans. Maybe we can break out the tiny violins for a global concert to benefit white western men and their hurt feelings.

Your boxes are deeply problematic because they are already leading you to make sweeping generalisations, for example that these schoolboys want to "treat all non white males like dirt", and your blanket categories have made you blind to all nuance. Your language is extreme in the hatred it shows towards an entire demographic. "White Western Male" doesn't even make sense as a category. My white grandparents are descended from Irish slaves in the Caribbean. They were 100% white, middle class and educated, but were alienated when they left the Caribbean and always made to feel like outsiders. My white European father in law grew up in an oppressive Marxist regime which demonised people because of their status and social categories, a regime which used the same kind of schematic rhetoric that you are using right now. I live in a city where just a couple of weeks ago, white European Jews were pushed to the ground by Arab men, had their windows smashed and shopfronts defaced. This is a regular problem here and is barely by the mainstream media. I grew up in a town where white British teenagers were systematically abused, raped and forced to have abortions by a group of non-white men using a piercing shop as a guise for their grooming gang. In the UK, white working class boys fare the worst at school and in their career paths.

Do you see why your categories are far too sweeping? You are grouping together millions of people with different backgrounds, histories and societal contexts. You are putting people, human beings, with an infinite spectrum of experiences, into a box that doesn't exist. There is no such category as "white Western privileged male".

The way you are putting people in boxes is chilling.
Agreed. And racist.

And again.. let white men deal with it. I’m sure those it doesn’t apply to can understand the generalizations. I don’t need to add a “not all men” in front.. because anyone with sense will know not all.

I’ll be sure to let my white husband know how racist I’ve been towards white men and how hard he has it being a blonde Swedish man with a good education and living in one of the best places to live.. he has it so hard! And I’m so racist.

What size capes do you ladies buy? Because you’re definitely going out of your way to defend men who don’t need defending.. but carry on. I guess we all need something worthwhile in our lives to stand for. 🙄

Look.. whatever issues white British men are having then I guess white British women can put on your capes and save them.

I just know whatever issues white Swedish men have it’s for them to fix.. as far as I can tell they don’t have many issues other than first world problems.

We aren’t having the class disenfranchisement of white men. So that’s a problem I can’t identify with. I’m sorry you have such huge class differences that cause the issues. But I can assure you.. If a white Swedish man were to trot out a woe is me he would be laughed out of the room. White Swedish men have it pretty good… that is probably why I don’t have the tolerance for them feeling sorry for themselves.

Still don’t see why that justifies the offense to black history and lgbt history. But ok.. one thing at a time perhaps. Enjoy your weekend.

Black history

It should be reframed as just history, part of British history, just like Henry the Eighth, Tudors or the World Wars are. Not "Black history" but British history. Same with the Empire, which is another stage of British history, not "alternative" or foreign, but British, and should be taught in depth - not as an alternative or sideline subject to be done only in a special month.

The labelling of subjects as "Black", "gay" or "white"(ie "regular"?!) is the problem here, I get that it was necessary to begin with - because it was never taught in my day - but today it should be included in the pool of general knowledge, not just "white + other" subjects. I think this is what causes division as already you are saying this is "normal" (ie white) history and this is "other people's history" (which makes white people look bad and therefore we don't like it).

Another example, when teaching about LGBT scientists, teachers should teach about the science first, and of course the people behind the science, and include if they were gay and something about their lives for context (but not ignore it). This just makes it normal, helps straight and gay kids learn about historical gay figures without anyone feeling threatened.

@xfgdhfgnhkk007

Black history

It should be reframed as just history, part of British history, just like Henry the Eighth, Tudors or the World Wars are. Not "Black history" but British history. Same with the Empire, which is another stage of British history, not "alternative" or foreign, but British, and should be taught in depth - not as an alternative or sideline subject to be done only in a special month.

The labelling of subjects as "Black", "gay" or "white"(ie "regular"?!) is the problem here, I get that it was necessary to begin with - because it was never taught in my day - but today it should be included in the pool of general knowledge, not just "white + other" subjects. I think this is what causes division as already you are saying this is "normal" (ie white) history and this is "other people's history" (which makes white people look bad and therefore we don't like it).

Another example, when teaching about LGBT scientists, teachers should teach about the science first, and of course the people behind the science, and include if they were gay and something about their lives for context (but not ignore it). This just makes it normal, helps straight and gay kids learn about historical gay figures without anyone feeling threatened.

100 this

@OMG12

Welcome to the world of diversity, tell people how different they all are, tell them to pick a box which comes with instructions on how to behave, who hates them, what they should be interested in and stick with other people in their box because everyone else will attack them and oppress them because they are victims. Everyone will then go on about how their box is the most oppressed and victimised group ever and everyone else is privileged!

We could spend the time raising people up, getting them engaged with everything and everyone they want to be engaged with because they find it interesting, admirable etc. why are we telling black people they need black role models? Think about what this is really saying. You shouldn’t aspire to be like a white person because you’ll never make it, let’s look at what black people can do etc.

why are we telling black people they need black role models?

Wow, did you think about that sentence? You think black people were not capable of deciding they needed role models who look like them until white people told them?
Just so you know, they’ve always looked for role models wherever they can find them.

For you to think it’s not reasonable for children to look for people like them to be inspired by shows your privilege, really. It doesn’t matter what colour you are.

Cultural Marxism is an anti-Semitic theory, just in case you weren't aware.

I've heard that claim and I have to say that it seems quite a significant stretch. More than that really, it's almost a conspiracy theory.

Black history

It should be reframed as just history

Morgan Freeman said something like this some years ago when he told an interviewer that he hated black history month. In fact I think he suggested that people should shut up about it. He also said that it did not help black kids to hear that they can't be successful because they are black, or that it would be a monumental struggle.

Obviously that's his opinion. But I would really like to ask these very white people with their very white husbands on the thread if they would think it is ok to tell Morgan Freeman, or John McWhorter, or Adolph Reed, that they are bigots who are afraid for white people because they reject identity politics? And if you wouldn't, why would you say it to people who are white? Do you think non-white people need a pass on these things for some reason?

The level of nastiness to people here based on their race is really shocking and disturbing. It really shows the kind of disdain the OP was talking about.

About 'cultural Marxism'.

I'm not sure what this term means. Marx had the idea that societies' belief systems are dictated by the economic power in the society, ie, it forces people to think a certain way specifically that a privileged group will oppress the other until the other rises up. In more recent times that idea has been adopted by other groups such as feminists and more recent by critical race theory. The sociologist Laurie Taylor on Radio 4 has discussed this from time to time and it's Marxist origin. Hence the hypothesis of patriarchy and of white privilege, ie, society is biased towards whites / men / heterosexuals and so on. I suppose it must mean that. But as amiable Boomer lefties on the BBC take this view, I think everyone ought to accept it.

Marx had no evidence to support his theory (which ended in bloody disaster anyway) and I wonder if the above hypotheses will have the same effect.

How do you identify a minority group? Who does this? How much protection does each group deserve? Who decides that? How do you decide if any individual person fits into such a group? Who decides? Ultimately there's no objective way to do this, meaning it gets sorted out by a power struggle, ie, Revolution. History is particularly important because whoever controls the present controls the past, and whoever controls the past controls the future.

Also the hypotheses are so slippery that the evidence just gets explained to fit the theory.

I remember 20 years ago hearing the theory that you can't be racist to a white person. Now that idea has become quite widespread. So the explanation must be either Jewish people aren't white or the Holocaust wasn't racism, whatever it was. It's bizarre and caused by memories of WW2 fading.