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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Men should have the right to not want a baby

999 replies

user57639206 · 23/02/2022 17:51

NC as I've been shot down a few times in real life for having this opinion.

I find it bizarre that women can decide that they don't want a baby and opt for a termination (just to clarify, I completely agree with this. It's her right to choice) but when a man decides now isn't the right time, right partner or whatever the reason - he's labelled a arsehole, good for nothing or irresponsible.

Surely if a woman has the right to say "no, not right now/not for me" a man should have the same right? Without being labelled or judged!

I've seen it a few times in real life, be it from a one night stand or a not so serious relationship. The woman wants to keep the baby, the man says he doesn't (but doesn't suggest an abortion), and he's thrown under the bus.

I know there is a big difference in some sense because obviously, the woman goes through all the physical changes/trauma of having a baby - but when are men then taken to court for CA or have knives shoved in their backs for not wanting a baby?

AIBU?

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 25/02/2022 12:37

This is the kind of argument you get into when you think equal should mean identical.

FairyCakeWings · 25/02/2022 12:37

She has that right because it is her body that is at risk of disability, death etc by continuing the pregnancy. It's her body that has to suffer the affects of abortion.

Of course, and she completely deserves that right. I just don’t think that that right to choose what happens to our own bodies on pregnancy transfers into a right to force a man into being a parent when he doesn’t want to be.

WindyState · 25/02/2022 12:38

@Thelnebriati

Complaining that biology is unfair and gives women an advantage is ridiculous. Men need to be upfront that they won't pay childcare, before they have sex.
Or they can just not have sex.

Nobody - male or female - should be able to just opt-out of supporting a child without going through a formal process such as adoption.

FairyCakeWings · 25/02/2022 12:39

Once the child is born it stops being about what the man/woman want and actually raising a living breathing child.

Which is why no one is advocating for a man to be able to change his mind once a living breathing child exists. Their right to absolve themselves of responsibility should only exist in the early stages of pregnancy, same as a women can.

TheKeatingFive · 25/02/2022 12:39

Because if she has the right to change her mind after agreeing and having unprotected sex with the aim of conceiving, then so should he.

But it's not a direct comparison as you well know.

If you're saying he should have the same rights as her to 'change his mind' during the pregnancy, then you're arguing for him to have rights over her body. Disgusting.

If you're arguing he gets to walk away from a living child, that's not comparable as that's not what she's doing. And at this point, the rights of the child should trump both parents 'rights'.

Due to basic biology, men and women's choices are different. Men get their agency at conception. If you think that's desperately unfair, spare a thought for the women who risk death abs disablement during pregnancy and childbirth. How are you going to 'level up' for that? Answer you aren't, because it's a totally dumbarse concept to be bringing into this discussion.

TheKeatingFive · 25/02/2022 12:40

Their right to absolve themselves of responsibility should only exist in the early stages of pregnancy, same as a women can.

Unborn children become living children.

Unless you're saying he has the right to force an abortion, your point doesn't stack up logically.

BasicBinaryBltch · 25/02/2022 12:42

@RedCandyApple

I’m more confused by people thinking anyone man or woman should be forced to raise a child they don’t want, it’s not in the best interest of the child and it seems people just want to punish men for their mistakes than actually what is in the best interest of the child.

There is no law of even societal obligation for men to do so. They should pay for their son of daughter however, out of duty or self respect.

ILoveYou3000 · 25/02/2022 12:44

But a woman absolving herself means there is no baby born. Once she decides to go ahead with the pregnancy that results in a living/breathing child. So, your argument of a man being able to absolve himself while not advocating for walking away from a living/breathing child makes no sense.

BobLep0nge · 25/02/2022 12:45

I just don’t think that that right to choose what happens to our own bodies on pregnancy transfers into a right to force a man into being a parent when he doesn’t want to be

Do you think it's right that in your world a man can simply just sign away his responsibilities but a women would have to make the tough choice to have an abortion she does not want, to deal with the effects of that abortion on her health and mental health or face raising a child in poverty and being judge even more harshly than already because 'well, she's should've had an abortion'?!

BasicBinaryBltch · 25/02/2022 12:46

@ILoveYou3000

But a woman absolving herself means there is no baby born. Once she decides to go ahead with the pregnancy that results in a living/breathing child. So, your argument of a man being able to absolve himself while not advocating for walking away from a living/breathing child makes no sense.
👏👏

All I'm hearing is "it's not faiirrrr women do it too". Yes, they change their mind and prevent a child, not the same as abandonment. Take it up with Mother Nature.

Maverickess · 25/02/2022 12:47

Women have that control too, but due to biology they get a chance to fix their mistake but men don’t. I don’t think that’s fair when at the very least, the woman’s choice has a big effect on the mans finances for the next 18 years.

It's not all the woman's choice that led to the pregnancy to start with though, yes the woman has the extra option, but without giving men the opportunity to force abortion or walk away from their mistake without concequences at all, there is no way to level the playing field and neither of those options are without concequences to other people, which seems to be fine as long as it's not the man facing them. Women do not walk away without concequences, they are the ones to have the abortion or the child, those are to the concequences that come with biology, it is a joint act that leads to the pregnancy, but you're advocating that the man not have any input towards his mistake should he choose not to. If he doesn't want to be a father then he needs to be active in preventing that. Although it's unpopular because many believe that men have an automatic right to sex, that the sex is undebatable and only what follows afterwards is up for debate.

Then let’s hold women to that standard and stop expecting taxpayers to pay for their abortions. Except, no one would agree that that’s reasonable, so I think it’s important that we try and level the playing field because equality is a thing that matters. It’s really not about trying to stop some poor men feeling hard done by.

Well if we're talking cost here, an abortion is far cheaper than raising a child for 18 years. So the cost of a woman having an abortion because she doesn't want a child is far less than a man getting to walk away and the state fund the concequences of his mistake.
And why are you only advocating women get charged for an abortion? Men should face 50% of that cost too, as they're the ones who provided the sperm.
Levelling the playing field involves someone else taking on the responsibility for a man's mistake solely if the man decides to walk away, it's not like they don't have the opportunity to not participate in sex, unless of course you believe that they shouldn't be expected to go without sex, or use the protection available to them because having sex in whatever way they want is more important than any concequences that may occur.

But don’t you see how this attitude could change if men were given the right to walk away from a pregnancy in it’s early stages the same way women can? If it’s known that men didn’t ‘opt out’ of a pregnancy, then the default is that they chose to be responsible for it. Society’s attitude would shift, because there could no longer be a belief that a woman tricked or coerced a man into having a child. It would not be considered acceptable for a man not to pay in the way it is now, because that man will have had the option to do something about it when he had the chance, and if he didn’t then he would automatically be considered responsible. There’s no reason why the CMS couldn’t be given more power to enforce payment, and I think there would be much more popular support for this if we could establish that all the men expected to pay it actively chose to have a child.
In short, no. Because we live in a society where men are encouraged, supported and expected to not take responsibility for themselves. In fact I think it would create more judgement towards women "You should have had an abortion when he signed those papers, not expected the tax payer to fund your child"
Abortion also isn't walking away from a pregnancy, it's ending it, no child is born. There is no child to walk away from for the man or the woman.
And there would still be those who insist men are tricked, they'd be claiming that the woman didn't tell him until it was too late, you will never get that to change because the belief that men are entitled to sex and that they are always the innocent victims in all this is so ingrained.
It's the reason why CMS is useless, it's the reason men are already sanctioned to walk away from their mistakes - the woman is always the one who was in the wrong and the man just a hapless victim.

FairyCakeWings · 25/02/2022 12:52

If you're saying he should have the same rights as her to 'change his mind' during the pregnancy, then you're arguing for him to have rights over her body. Disgusting.

I honestly don’t see how you work that one out.

Rdsdadmum · 25/02/2022 12:53

@RedCandyApple

I’m more confused by people thinking anyone man or woman should be forced to raise a child they don’t want, it’s not in the best interest of the child and it seems people just want to punish men for their mistakes than actually what is in the best interest of the child.
100% agree. It would appear there are lots of man haters on this thread. Put your personal vendettas aside and let's discuss what needs to be discussed. Should always be about the best interest of the child. Forcing any parent to be a parent if they don't want to be is not good for the child, I'm sure there a millions of people out there who could vouch for this because they have experienced it first hand.
Luredbyapomegranate · 25/02/2022 12:53

@user57639206

I seriously want to clarify I am not saying a woman should be forced into anything. The complete opposite, there are a million and one reasons to abort or continue any pregnancy and each is so unique, so relative and completely down to the woman.

I'm just saying I think men should be able to walk away from an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy but everyone jumps down their throat.

Because it's not a parallel situation OP

When a woman has a termination there is no child. When a man walks away from a pregnancy there's an abandoned child. Which is why the proper thing to do for a man who didn't want a child is to maintain at least a moderate level of contact and interest, and make appropriate financial contributions.

I agree it's not fair, but as we all learn when we are kids there are situations in life where you cannot make things fair. This is one of them.

BobLep0nge · 25/02/2022 12:55

Forcing any parent to be a parent if they don't want to be is not good for the child

All anyone is saying is that the man should financially support his child.
Like I said before, he could set up a monthly standing order and think no more of it. Very easy, very little impact on his life.

BasicBinaryBltch · 25/02/2022 12:56

Oh my days, yawn, nobody's being forced to parent. Who's forcing them- society? Funny joke, that.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 25/02/2022 13:00

@BobLep0nge

Forcing any parent to be a parent if they don't want to be is not good for the child

All anyone is saying is that the man should financially support his child.
Like I said before, he could set up a monthly standing order and think no more of it. Very easy, very little impact on his life.

This
BobLep0nge · 25/02/2022 13:00

All of you who support the rights of a father to walk away from their child, would you be ok with a man impregnating 100 women in a year and then claiming he didn't want to be a father? What if he does the same the next year? And the year after? Do you truly advocate that a father should have the ability to wash his hands of hundreds of his children?
(Far fetched but perfectly possible)

WindyState · 25/02/2022 13:01

@FairyCakeWings

Once the child is born it stops being about what the man/woman want and actually raising a living breathing child.

Which is why no one is advocating for a man to be able to change his mind once a living breathing child exists. Their right to absolve themselves of responsibility should only exist in the early stages of pregnancy, same as a women can.

But unless something happens (intentional or not) during the pregnancy the inevitable result is a child which requires support.

The point to "opt-out" is prior to having sex. Not after.

FairyCakeWings · 25/02/2022 13:02

No, I wouldn’t be ok with that in the same way that I wouldn’t be ok with a woman having multiple abortions. In either case, you hope that either the court having to deal with the man or the clinic having to deal with the woman would say something about permanent contraception after the first couple of mistakes.

BobLep0nge · 25/02/2022 13:05

No, I wouldn’t be ok with that in the same way that I wouldn’t be ok with a woman having multiple abortions. In either case, you hope that either the court having to deal with the man or the clinic having to deal with the woman would say something about permanent contraception after the first couple of mistakes

But if the man chooses to continue to not use contraception you'd be fine for him to not pay anything towards his hundreds of children, yes?

TheKeatingFive · 25/02/2022 13:09

No, I wouldn’t be ok with that in the same way that I wouldn’t be ok with a woman having multiple abortions.

One man can father many multiples of the number of children a woman could abort. And with none of the physical and mental repercussions of abortion. And that's the kind of society you want to foster.

wanttomarryamillionaire · 25/02/2022 13:09

@BobLep0nge it can have a massive impact on his life financially. Being forced to had over a minimum of 15% of his wage for 18 years could mean the difference between being able to afford a mortgage or to have a family of his own when he is ready. It's not just a small blip in finances for a few months, its a financial commitment that he didn't want for many many years.

WindyState · 25/02/2022 13:10

[quote wanttomarryamillionaire]@BobLep0nge it can have a massive impact on his life financially. Being forced to had over a minimum of 15% of his wage for 18 years could mean the difference between being able to afford a mortgage or to have a family of his own when he is ready. It's not just a small blip in finances for a few months, its a financial commitment that he didn't want for many many years. [/quote]
So?

It's his kid. If he doesn't help support the child financially who will? The mother? The state?

If you have a child you have a moral responsibility to support it, surely?

BasicBinaryBltch · 25/02/2022 13:11

[quote wanttomarryamillionaire]@BobLep0nge it can have a massive impact on his life financially. Being forced to had over a minimum of 15% of his wage for 18 years could mean the difference between being able to afford a mortgage or to have a family of his own when he is ready. It's not just a small blip in finances for a few months, its a financial commitment that he didn't want for many many years. [/quote]

You don't understand. The 15% rule only applies if there is no settlement reached. Rarely do the CMS get involved. Ive never met a man who's had poor life outcomes based on paying child support. Women on the other hand...

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