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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Men should have the right to not want a baby

999 replies

user57639206 · 23/02/2022 17:51

NC as I've been shot down a few times in real life for having this opinion.

I find it bizarre that women can decide that they don't want a baby and opt for a termination (just to clarify, I completely agree with this. It's her right to choice) but when a man decides now isn't the right time, right partner or whatever the reason - he's labelled a arsehole, good for nothing or irresponsible.

Surely if a woman has the right to say "no, not right now/not for me" a man should have the same right? Without being labelled or judged!

I've seen it a few times in real life, be it from a one night stand or a not so serious relationship. The woman wants to keep the baby, the man says he doesn't (but doesn't suggest an abortion), and he's thrown under the bus.

I know there is a big difference in some sense because obviously, the woman goes through all the physical changes/trauma of having a baby - but when are men then taken to court for CA or have knives shoved in their backs for not wanting a baby?

AIBU?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 24/02/2022 07:17

@worriedatthemoment

Everyone is saying if a man doesn't want a baby he should use condom or not have sex , would you say that to a woman that chooses to not have a baby ?
Well yes.

Thats the whole talk that teenagers get at school for crying out loud! Not some fringe crank opinion.

mugoftea456 · 24/02/2022 07:18

Men are never forced to raised a child they don't want. The courts won't force a father to have contact.

The only thing legally they have to do is financially provide. For 16-18 years.

misspercy · 24/02/2022 07:18

Men have the right to not want a baby and to feel upset if the woman gets pregnant after a contraceptive failure and decides she doesn't want to terminate.

I did use to feel a bit of compassion there.

However, men are advantaged in so many other ways. They don't get passed over for promotion like we do. They earn more for the same work. They don't live in fear like we do - how many of us don't walk down certain streets after a certain time because it's too dark, or speed up if we hear a man walking the same way as us?

We get treated like shit in so many aspects of life, just let us have this. Just let us be the only person whose opinion counts. Just for this one thing.

GrendelsGrandma · 24/02/2022 07:22

If I was a man, I'd be livid that there weren't more options to control my own fertility than condoms and vasectomy.

Not livid that sometimes women want babies.

Brefugee · 24/02/2022 07:23

for all the "do you tell women not to have sex" brigade: yes, we do

I do think this conversation is interesting, and some of the arguments are well thought out. Others? not so much.

When women ask for equality, a lot of the arguments against it run along the lines of "well, you don't see many women refuse collectors, it's a hard physical job so generally you need to be big and strong, like a man" or "well the reason women don't win 100m races against Usain Bolt is because he's really tall, has really long legs, and has male muscles, it is ridiculous to think a woman's physical body can beat that". The argument is: Women can't do X because of nature.

The arguments for why men can't simply say "nope" and then do nothing about any resulting pregnancy even when they have used contraception is that same argument in reverse. And as we see from this thread people don't seem to like that. Average male earnings over an average male life compared to a woman are higher and one reason is that so many women take maternity leave. But when we suggest men are compelled to take maternity leave (as a thought experiment mostly, nobody should be forced to do that, i hated it) so that in around 50 years it is also the norm and hopefully wages have evened out. That would mean the argument for "women stay home because their husband earns more" would be moot.

But nobody really - outside of some absolute die-hard feminists, I'd guess - wants to force that issue. Men i've spoken to certainly agree in principle that it would be A Good Thing but "well, I don't want to do that I've worked hard at my career" (discounting the implication that many women feel the same way about their careers)

It is a fact of nature that women have the babies and men have the freedom in fact (if not entirely in law, and certainly it isn't ethical or morally right) to walk away at any point beginning with after their orgasm that results in a fertilized egg. Calls of "wah wah that's not fair" are rather childish and pointless. We already know (ask a minority) that life isn't fair.

As a matter of interest i looked up contraceptive failure rates. This is from the US CDC which i think is an authoritative enough body for most of us?

www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/contraception/index.htm

These figures are for correctly used contraception. As an aside - I'm another previous enthusiastic ONS sex-loving kind of gal. I am not ashamed of that. I am also not ashamed to say that i have always insisted on a codom because a) i really never wanted to get pregnant so while i was on the pill i prefer a backup plan and b) i never wanted (and have never caught) an STD. Be safe, people.

Quick rundown of failure rates (of correctly used contraception):
implant - 0.1%
injection - 4%
pill (either type) - 7%
patch - 7%
ring - 7%
diaphragm - 17%
sponge - 14% if you have never had a baby 27% if you have
male condom - 13%
female condom - 21%
spermicide - 21%
then we get to the counting methods
surprised to see that some fertility based awareness methods can be as low as 2% rising to 23%

Then the permanent ones
Female sterelization - 0.5%
vasectomy - 0.15%

So here's my tip for people (male or female) who don't want children:
barrier method with spermicide.
Men: get the snip
women: use the implant
belt and braces - use 2 of the above.
Even better: check where you are in your cycle

But maybe we, society, should have a way of legally absolving us from responsibility for children we have created? Men as well as women. How would that look? Perhaps there could be either a huge upfront fee for that (to be put in a kind of fund for the child) or they have deductions from salary/welfare payments? Would that look at all like a fair system to someone on 6 figures verses an unemployed person? What if both parents did it? What if the child was severely disabled but this only became clear after 3 years? should the system still be open then? Again, to whom?

FloBot7 · 24/02/2022 07:23

I get what you mean but there's not really a way to make it work. In an ideal world, men would be pushing for male contraceptives to be developed so they could have the choice to double up with a male pill and condoms. There's research going on but it's slow and not expected to amount to anything for years. It would be interesting to see the uptake when it finally becomes available.

Loopytiles · 24/02/2022 07:24

Your preference would mean women not having bodily autonomy and forced to have abortions or remain pregnant and give birth when they don’t want to.

Soubriquet · 24/02/2022 07:31

Yabu.

The way you are phrasing it means a man who doesn’t like condoms can leave a string of pregnant women in his wake because he doesn’t want children.

He doesn’t have to pay CSA because he doesn’t want children

What a cush life and a perfect excuse

Brefugee · 24/02/2022 07:38

Male contraceptive pills have been developed. The men don't like the side effects which are comparable with the side effects for the female contraceptive pill. So the trials are halted.

Make of that what you will.

SarahBellam · 24/02/2022 07:46

@StiffyBing

I agree with you. I know a hugely unpopular opinion. It must be awful for some guys who desperately want the child and have no say in the matter, or hook up with someone for a night and end up having a child with a stranger.
If only there was some way a man could prevent an unwanted pregnancy...if only...
SarahBellam · 24/02/2022 07:50

@pollypokcet

And by that reasoning women shouldn't shag around carelessly, have 3 or 4 kids by different dads, get subsidised housing cos their entitled and claim benefits cos their entitled.etc etc shocking statement which is sexist. By all means have as many kids as you want but support them yourself if you want to 'shag around carelssly'....poor women forced to get pregnant by careless men!

@Lemonlady22

The housing is for the children. She wouldn't get it if she didn't have custody - or should we let kids go without to punish them mothers?Confused

Child maintenance is also for the child, not a punishment for men.

Any of those dads could have stopped those pregnancies from happening. Men MUST take responsibility for their own fertility.
Unpopular37 · 24/02/2022 08:00

@user57639206

At what point did I say she should be forced to abort? Maybe re-read and engage your brain?

My point is if he doesn't want to have a child either at all, or right now, surely he should be allowed to walk away without a stigma? Just as a woman rightly can abort without stigma

You are fighting a losing battle OP. Once you have presented a contrary/'unpopular' thought or opinion here, you are branded! I happen to agree with your original point, so have retreated to underground bunker!
TheKeatingFive · 24/02/2022 08:03

Of course they have the right not to want a baby. And to make that happen they can abstain from sex.

They don't have the right to consequence free shags.

SnowFlo · 24/02/2022 08:05

The way you are phrasing it means a man who doesn’t like condoms can leave a string of pregnant women in his wake because he doesn’t want children.

If the woman isn't on her own contraception, then she shouldn't be risking sleeping with a man who says he won't wear a condom, because she knows she could become pregnant when she doesn't want to be. Women are choosing to sleep with men unprotected as well.

SnowFlo · 24/02/2022 08:08

And if a woman can't take hormonal contraception, then she clearly isn't compatible with a man who doesn't like condoms.

TheKeatingFive · 24/02/2022 08:10

My point is if he doesn't want to have a child either at all, or right now, surely he should be allowed to walk away without a stigma? Just as a woman rightly can abort without stigma

These rights don't exist in a vacuum though.

A woman has a right to autonomy over her own body.

A child has the right to support from their parents.

A man's right to consequence free sex will conflict with those rights and it is god damn difficult to argue why it should take precedence over a woman's or child's rights.

Loopytiles · 24/02/2022 08:14

‘Stigma’ about fathers who not parent or provide minimal financial support for their DC is justified.

Didyousaynutella · 24/02/2022 08:16

*KosherDill

Didyousaynutella
Because it isn’t the man who has to actually go through the process of actually ending a life if they don’t want the baby.

Because if a man were allowed to walk away if they didn’t want the baby baby then more women would feel like they had no choice to have an abortion.

Abortions for social reasons are actually illegal in the uk. So the argument is mute anyway. They are only allowed on the grounds of the mental health of the mother.

A clump of non-sentient cells is not "a life" any more than ear wax or one's latest bowel movement is FFs.*

Kosher to the woman having the abortion it may feel like that. That is my point. Whether you believe it is a clump of cells or a soul, doesn’t matter. What matters if what the woman who is having to go through it believes and how that may impact her having do do that.

Loopytiles · 24/02/2022 08:17

As things stand there are few to no penalties for these fathers, so OP’s preference is met.

BasicBinaryBltch · 24/02/2022 08:20

@SnowFlo

The way you are phrasing it means a man who doesn’t like condoms can leave a string of pregnant women in his wake because he doesn’t want children.

If the woman isn't on her own contraception, then she shouldn't be risking sleeping with a man who says he won't wear a condom, because she knows she could become pregnant when she doesn't want to be. Women are choosing to sleep with men unprotected as well.

But if the woman is continuing, she's obviously fine with the baby. We're talking about the man's contraception because he's the one who wants to bail

Didyousaynutella · 24/02/2022 08:22

In Great Britain abortion continues to be regulated under criminal law, but is legally available through the Abortion Act 1967, which permits abortions if there is:

risk to the life of the pregnant woman;
a necessity for abortion to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman;
risk of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family (up to a term limit of 24 weeks of gestation); or
substantial risk that if the child were born, it would "suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped".[4][5]

These are the reasons you are allowed an abortion in Great Britain. I don’t see anywhere that it says cos the father doesn’t want to keep it.

BasicBinaryBltch · 24/02/2022 08:23

A clump of non-sentient cells is not "a life" any more than ear wax or one's latest bowel movement is FFs

We can be pro choice and admit that a growing embryo whatever is a life. It has all life processes (MRSGREN), it is a life biologically. The value you attribute is a different matter.

Woman has authority. Still a life and some people will find it hard to choose termination if they're spiritual.

MintyFreshBreath · 24/02/2022 08:27

Yeah they can but they should wear a condom, refuse to have sex or have the snip if they’re serious about not having a baby. I’ve got literally zero sympathy for a man child who says ‘I didn’t want this baby’ ‘she trapped me into it’ etc. The man has a lot of choice at the beginning, mostly by refusing sex and if they choose to go down that route then they risk pregnancy. Tough shit. Once the woman is pregnant it’s all up to her and he can cry and moan all he wants but he had his chance to stop it and wasted it.

Jammallama · 24/02/2022 08:29

@TheKeatingFive - fully agree with that! The right of the man shouldn't take precedent over the rights of the women or the child.

OP might like to practice saying 'under his eye' Hmm

fleurpots · 24/02/2022 08:45

No one's calling her a arsehole, irresponsible or awful.

Yes they are. Maybe there is less judgement than in times past, but the judgement and disdain a woman receives if she is vocal about an abortion outweighs what a man receives if shirks his parental responsibilities.