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Original poster

Could EUPD come under the neuro diverse umbrella?

273 replies

UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 17:36

I have been to a neuro diversity conference today. One thing that came up was that Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (BPD) should be categorised as a neuro developmental disorder like Autism. I found this so interesting as I've often thought the same. There is so much cross over between EUPD and other disorders like ASD and ADHD, for example many of the differences in the brain are the same, impulsiveness and black and white thinking can happen in EUPD and ADHD/Autism.

I would love to hear from anyone who has experience of these disorders what you think?

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:03

@rogueone

I dont deal with blogs, i work with the RCPsych and the NHSE national leads so will be guided by them...i have a very positive track record and support many individuals so crack on with your EUPD agenda
You are hilarious! So people are lying on that blog too!! There are books written about it, groups going on on wards! Open your eyes!!
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BachAndByte · 23/02/2022 23:03

I’m autistic.

There is absolutely no way DBT would help me.

To give one example. A lot of the interpersonal effectiveness (on the site that MIND links to so I assume is a suitable resource) seems about changing your style to make others feel comfortable. This is like masking. It is not for me to make others feel comfortable at the expense of my own well-being.

If it has helped you, great. But it is not a one size fits all approach. Nothing is.

milkyaqua · 23/02/2022 23:05

Well, I'm afraid you're extremely uniformed. 7 years really doesn't make you an expert, I'm afraid.

considering you're an 'expert'

I feel sorry for the people you work with, I really do.

Haha...experts based on a bit of reading! I think you need to do a bit more reading, you're so outdated. Remind me when is your book coming out?

Rude.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:07

@rogueone - do you honestly not understand how things work?? So some junior psychiatrist reads blogs etc and sees people have been using DBT for autistic people, then she runs a group and has success, she posts on Twitter, this spreads, someone is speaking at a conference so they talk about it, much much later research is done....

If you want to be at the cutting edge don't wait around til you read it in a journal! It's about being dynamic and trying things.

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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:11

@milkyaqua

Well, I'm afraid you're extremely uniformed. 7 years really doesn't make you an expert, I'm afraid.

considering you're an 'expert'

I feel sorry for the people you work with, I really do.

Haha...experts based on a bit of reading! I think you need to do a bit more reading, you're so outdated. Remind me when is your book coming out?

Rude.

After she had already been rude to me. Told me I was a liar. Another poster who said the same as me was apparently a liar too. As we're all the people DBT helped. This person claims they know more about autism than autistic people after 7 years in some kind of support role, more about it than consultant psychiatrists. She claims these people have just done a bit of reading. Is none of that rude? Is she really an expert above all these people?
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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:14

@rogueonehttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32183793/

Here we are a rtc in a journal mentioning using DBT for those with autism.

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rogueone · 23/02/2022 23:15

UndertheCedartree you are irritating...you havent read anything i have written. You havent bothered to read the work that i do. not everyone who is diagnosed as autistic person is sat at home. People i work with have suffered years of inpatient stays in a mental health hospital and remain so as adults. Consultant Psychiatrists are not experts in dealing with autistic people and end up rediagnosing or treating their behavuours. You dont understand this, It is hard to undo the trauma and does require a functional behavioural analyis to understand the behaviours. As much as you may think i am outdated I will share your thoughts with the many families who have reached out and thanked me for me assistance in getting there loved one out of hospital. i have never had anyone tell me i dont understand and you seem to not be able to see beyond DBT

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:18

@rogueone

I am not going to explain myself to you however .i have worked tirelessly to support people to leave institutions after many years. Not one area of support was to offer DBT...what was offered was a team around people to support them in the community in their own home, I have intervened when parents have called me in panic that their adult DC with autism was being assessed for a section under the mHA and i had to intervene and source an alternative. I do alot of important work to support families and I will say again DBT has never been an intervention with those with ASD...so you may think I am narrow minded but i have made a huge impact with those i work with
Yet if you were a bit more pro active, read a bit more, attended conferences you could be so much better. Do those with ASD know you think you're an expert above the lived experiences of those with Autism? Ah, well, I suppose this just one of those things where NT people do just seem...well just not able to join the dots!
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Mickarooni · 23/02/2022 23:20

I’m sure DBT is effective for those with a dual ASC and mental health diagnosis, especially if they have traits or behaviours that are suggestive of EUPD. I really hate the term ‘personality disorder’ btw, nothing like telling a person who already has low self esteem that their entire being is disordered. :(

rogueone · 23/02/2022 23:20

you are just down right rude UndertheCedartree just because you have lived experience doesnt mean your an expert for all who are autistic...i am not engaging with you any further

Mickarooni · 23/02/2022 23:23

I understand where @rogueone is coming from. There are some people with an ASC who just do not have the cognitive abilities to manage the complexities of DBT.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:27

@rogueone

UndertheCedartree you are irritating...you havent read anything i have written. You havent bothered to read the work that i do. not everyone who is diagnosed as autistic person is sat at home. People i work with have suffered years of inpatient stays in a mental health hospital and remain so as adults. Consultant Psychiatrists are not experts in dealing with autistic people and end up rediagnosing or treating their behavuours. You dont understand this, It is hard to undo the trauma and does require a functional behavioural analyis to understand the behaviours. As much as you may think i am outdated I will share your thoughts with the many families who have reached out and thanked me for me assistance in getting there loved one out of hospital. i have never had anyone tell me i dont understand and you seem to not be able to see beyond DBT
I know us autistic people are often irritating! You called me a liar! What makes you think that is ok? I have proven to you that DBT is used with autism and you just pompously claimed you were much too much of an expert to read a blog!! If you said fair play and apologised then maybe I'd be more interested in your role. But as I've said I've come across people like you. People that think being a support worker means they know more about autism than autistic people. You don't!

And if you'd read the thread you would see I'm a nurse. I know not everyone is sat round at home! You asked me who gave the information about brain differences in EUPD - I answered consultant psychiatrists. I'm sorry but a support worker of 7 years really does not know more than a consultant psychiatrist specialising in EUPD about brain differences in EUPD. People don't tell you you don't understand because of your attitude that you are an expert. I've worked as a nurse for many, many more years than 7 but I still would never claim to be the expert above a lived experience! Have you never heard of Patient Experts?

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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:30

@Mickarooni

I understand where *@rogueone* is coming from. There are some people with an ASC who just do not have the cognitive abilities to manage the complexities of DBT.
Same as EUPD. Some do a kind of DBT lite for those with lower cognitive abilities.

A couple of us talked about how DBT is sometimes used for ASD. Not for everyone for some. I mean of course DBT is only used for some too. @rogueone came on and accused us of lying. Claiming she was an expert on it.

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NewtoHolland · 23/02/2022 23:33

No, because EUPD is a result of trauma.
The brain differences I believe are the physiological footprint of trauma on the brain...not primarily caused as part of a disability/genetic differences.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:34

What a shame that an interesting thread was derailed by someone wanting to come on and throw their weight around and call people liars. If @rogueone knew anything about those of us who are autistic they would know we can't abide being called something we are not. Now I need to use some DBT to calm down! Definitely works for some autistic folk! Grin

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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:37

@NewtoHolland

No, because EUPD is a result of trauma. The brain differences I believe are the physiological footprint of trauma on the brain...not primarily caused as part of a disability/genetic differences.
What makes you think that?
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Mickarooni · 23/02/2022 23:38

Genuine question, are people with an ASC offered DBT without a dual diagnosis? I’ve never come across this but I wouldn’t know if it’s happened or not. I do know, like most therapies, there are inexcusably long waiting lists for DBT for those with a diagnosis of EUPD.

milkyaqua · 23/02/2022 23:40

@NewtoHolland

No, because EUPD is a result of trauma. The brain differences I believe are the physiological footprint of trauma on the brain...not primarily caused as part of a disability/genetic differences.
This is also my understanding.
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:41

@Mickarooni - sorry I meant DBT is only used for some with EUPD.

I believe the community team which run a kind of DBT skills group (only) have it opened up to quite a range of diagnoses.

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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:42

@milkyaqua - what makes you think that?

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Chonfox · 23/02/2022 23:44

I thought that was a makey uppy "diagnosis" that stigmatises traumatised women mostly? Very different to autism I would have thought?

RoastedFerret · 23/02/2022 23:47

@milkyaqua

I think you may have a classic case of being rude, OP.
The OP has stated multiple times that she has ASD. You should probably cut her some slack when it comes to her style of communication.
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:48

@Mickarooni

Genuine question, are people with an ASC offered DBT without a dual diagnosis? I’ve never come across this but I wouldn’t know if it’s happened or not. I do know, like most therapies, there are inexcusably long waiting lists for DBT for those with a diagnosis of EUPD.
Well, my direct experience is with my DS. This isn't formal DBT of course. It was a skills group. Not through Psychiatry. I'll have a look back at what the other poster said. I think the journal I linked was about autistic people who were suicidal. The journal was about a group to help autistic people with coping skills related to areas they may struggle with due to Autism.
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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:50

@Chonfox

I thought that was a makey uppy "diagnosis" that stigmatises traumatised women mostly? Very different to autism I would have thought?
No, it's not. In my experience. Lots of cross over that I've posted up thread. Have a look and see what you think?
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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 23/02/2022 23:54

@RoastedFerret - thank you Smile

I got worked up because that poster called me a liar! Autistic people normally get in trouble for being too honest, not lying! Grin

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