Could EUPD come under the neuro diverse umbrella?

[UndertheCedartree]

I have been to a neuro diversity conference today. One thing that came up was that Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (BPD) should be categorised as a neuro developmental disorder like Autism. I found this so interesting as I've often thought the same. There is so much cross over between EUPD and other disorders like ASD and ADHD, for example many of the differences in the brain are the same, impulsiveness and black and white thinking can happen in EUPD and ADHD/Autism.

I would love to hear from anyone who has experience of these disorders what you think?

The only point of the ND umbrella is to distinguish it from mental illness, isn't it?
I've found this very interesting - thanks to everyone who has contributed, both professionals and people who live with the conditions we're discussing.
Can I ask a basic question? Why is BPD/EUPD so stigmatised? Looking at the venn diagram that someone posted above, it doesn't seem to have any 'worse' traits than CPTSD. Is it simply because personality disorders have historically been considered intractable, and CPTSD isn't considered a PD so is 'better'?

I know that (some of) the thinking on whether PDs are treatable has moved on - what's caused that, does anyone know?

Many illnesses effect people differently - someone may have no symptoms and someone may have severe symptoms but both the same diagnosis

But that's just not the case. If you have ADHD you have severe symptoms. You literally cannot get a diagnosis without it. It's a debilitating disorder that the vast majority of people want to treat. And many people control it it successfully enough via medication that they can live a relatively normal life.

Why this is put under an umbrella with something we're repeatedly told "not to try to treat" like ASD / ASC I will never understand.

If the consensus is it has to be lumped together under "neurodiversity" because the brain is different then I agree with you and your original post. If trauma makes the brain different then it should theoretically come under the banner too.

But a lot of ADHD people reject the term entirely. Mention the word "neurodiversity" in the biggest support community on the internet and a bot will come along to tell you it's a nonsense political term that means nothing and why we should be using "people with/out ADHD" instead.

To me it's about as much use as "LGBTQ+". What the fuck does the LGB have to do with the T?

The only point of the ND umbrella is to distinguish it from mental illness, isn't it?

But for what purpose? I have ADHD, my best friend has BPD, and my mum has chronic depression. All of us take medication every single day which helps us function and be able to do normal every day things like clean our kitchens and parent our children and maintain relationships and hold down jobs.

Why do I need to be somehow "distinguished" from them? What is actually the difference? We all seem to have an imbalance of chemicals in our brains which can be made more balanced by medication.

So why am I under some kind of umbrella and they aren't?

@fghjk I agree, that was the point i was making. It's all about how we as a society retain a Victorian drive to classify into a moral hierarchy.

That's a grim way to run the world generally, but it's unspeakably cruel in the arena of mental health.

As with patriarchy (which which it shares some goals and methods) one feels that the reason this way of organising the world persists is because it/we would collapse if we were actually forced to confront the extent to which it depends upon or makes inevitable the endemic, systemic abuse of its weaker members (women in the case of the patriarchy, children in the case of the - what would we call it - the psychocracy?!)

I don't think reclassification as a developmental condition like autism would be right. Agree with pp that this could also mean people with EUPD don't get help with trauma. In my (limited) experience, everyone I know who has an EUPD diagnosis experienced sexual abuse in childhood. That makes me wonder if it should be renamed or recategorised as a trauma response. Although I suppose you could argue a lot of mental illnesses have trauma or environmental triggers? I'm not sure... but I have noticed the link amongst people I know.

@WinterDeWinter

The only point of the ND umbrella is to distinguish it from mental illness, isn't it? I've found this very interesting - thanks to everyone who has contributed, both professionals and people who live with the conditions we're discussing. Can I ask a basic question? Why is BPD/EUPD so stigmatised? Looking at the venn diagram that someone posted above, it doesn't seem to have any 'worse' traits than CPTSD. Is it simply because personality disorders have historically been considered intractable, and CPTSD isn't considered a PD so is 'better'?

I know that (some of) the thinking on whether PDs are treatable has moved on - what's caused that, does anyone know?

There are a lot of myths around EUPD. That people with it are just attention seekers, that they are manipulative for example. These things aren't actually part of the criteria for diagnosis but many still believe they are an integral part of the condition. I think also the term 'personality disorder' makes people think it is a weakness in someone's personality almost like it's a weakness in their morality.

I think the thinking on EUPD being treatable is from more research being done and more willingness for people with EUPD to not just written off. We now know medications can be used to treat some of the symptoms and that DBT can be extremely helpful and can even 'cure' EUPD - in that the person wouldn't meet criteria. I say 'cure' only because I think many would way they still had EUPD but they had learnt to live with it really well.

That, and the fact that it suits the powerful members not to confront it.

But I do also think that adults who are parents (still the vast majority) cannot actually bear the pain of fully understanding how much we damage our children. So few of us have anything beyond the most basic understanding of childhood development, beyond 'don't hit them or starve them.' Even in the ten years since I had small children, there has been a massive increase in parents awareness of how huge a role their own trauma/anxieties/traits play in how they parent.

There's a woman, who I think is thought of as a new voice in parenting, who asks parents to think about what they themselves are feeling when they are becoming caught up in a negative interaction with their child - that is not something that I ever came across, even ten years ago - it would have changed everything for me, I think, and been hugely beneficial for my children. The shift is apparent in the title the Guardian gave here - 'the Parent Whisperer'. It's all about the parent.

@fghjk

Many illnesses effect people differently - someone may have no symptoms and someone may have severe symptoms but both the same diagnosis

But that's just not the case. If you have ADHD you have severe symptoms. You literally cannot get a diagnosis without it. It's a debilitating disorder that the vast majority of people want to treat. And many people control it it successfully enough via medication that they can live a relatively normal life.

Why this is put under an umbrella with something we're repeatedly told "not to try to treat" like ASD / ASC I will never understand.

If the consensus is it has to be lumped together under "neurodiversity" because the brain is different then I agree with you and your original post. If trauma makes the brain different then it should theoretically come under the banner too.

But a lot of ADHD people reject the term entirely. Mention the word "neurodiversity" in the biggest support community on the internet and a bot will come along to tell you it's a nonsense political term that means nothing and why we should be using "people with/out ADHD" instead.

To me it's about as much use as "LGBTQ+". What the fuck does the LGB have to do with the T?

Thank you for that, very interesting. I don't know much about ADHD but it has been described to me as a trauma response. I do know someone with ADHD who sees it as ND, but can understand why others don't. I thought the conditions under the ND umbrella were all ones where it is thought there are differences in the structure of the brain.

@fghjk

The only point of the ND umbrella is to distinguish it from mental illness, isn't it?

But for what purpose? I have ADHD, my best friend has BPD, and my mum has chronic depression. All of us take medication every single day which helps us function and be able to do normal every day things like clean our kitchens and parent our children and maintain relationships and hold down jobs.

Why do I need to be somehow "distinguished" from them? What is actually the difference? We all seem to have an imbalance of chemicals in our brains which can be made more balanced by medication.

So why am I under some kind of umbrella and they aren't?

I don't think the only point is to distinguish from mental illness. So yes, for a classification need. But so that the conditions can be understood better and supported better. ADHD is already under the ND umbrella and that can be helped with meds. The idea is it is not just about brain chemicals but differences in the structures of the brain. So that is why EUPD and ADHD could be put under this umbrella but not depression.

It wasn't long ago that EUPD wasn't seen as a mental illness, anyway.

@WinterDeWinter

That, and the fact that it suits the powerful members not to confront it.

But I do also think that adults who are parents (still the vast majority) cannot actually bear the pain of fully understanding how much we damage our children. So few of us have anything beyond the most basic understanding of childhood development, beyond 'don't hit them or starve them.' Even in the ten years since I had small children, there has been a massive increase in parents awareness of how huge a role their own trauma/anxieties/traits play in how they parent.

There's a woman, who I think is thought of as a new voice in parenting, who asks parents to think about what they themselves are feeling when they are becoming caught up in a negative interaction with their child - that is not something that I ever came across, even ten years ago - it would have changed everything for me, I think, and been hugely beneficial for my children. The shift is apparent in the title the Guardian gave here - 'the Parent Whisperer'. It's all about the parent.

I'll have a look at that, thank you. I absolutely think it is about me when a negative situation happens!

I've been back at the conference today. Just to note it is specifically about mental health but ND in general.

Regarding talking about umbrellas. Everything comes under an umbrella. So regarding EUPD. Originally it would have come under the umbrella of a behavioural condition. Now it comes under the umbrella of Serious mental illness. The question is should it move to Neuro diversity like ADHD has. The point of this is that people with a diagnosis can get the right help and support. If and this is a big if at the moment it is decided EUPD should come under the umbrella of ND tor should come under the umbrella of trauma disorders then it could open up new and effective treatments.

From reading the comments on here many are keen for EUPD to be recognised as a trauma condition. But many people with EUPD don't feel that gives the full picture.

Theres a ted talk by Simon Chan I think about scanning 83,000 brains. He says psychiatry is the only medical discipline that refuses to look at the organ it treats. My hope is that neuropsychology departments expand and we can break down the idea of dualism as it used to be before psychiatry and neurology took different paths.

@AfraidToRun

Theres a ted talk by Simon Chan I think about scanning 83,000 brains. He says psychiatry is the only medical discipline that refuses to look at the organ it treats. My hope is that neuropsychology departments expand and we can break down the idea of dualism as it used to be before psychiatry and neurology took different paths.

Thank you, that is very interesting. I will have a look.

Not Simon Chan at all! Just search ted talk 83,000 brain scans and it will come up!

Now it comes under the umbrella of Serious mental illness. The question is should it move to Neuro diversity like ADHD has.

But my question is why would you want it to be?

Search up "neurodiversity" and the first result:

There’s a growing push to focus on our brainn^ differences, not deficits. This wider view of "normal" is a big part of something called neurodiversity.

I cannot speak for EUPD but certainly for ADHD and I don't see it as a difference - I see it as a disability that requires treatment and adjustments. The same way someone paralysed from the waist down is disabled and requires a wheelchair and a ramp outside the library.

This is almost the complete opposite of what neurodiversity advocates push for, which is the whole "different but not deficit" or "superpower" type thing. They think it's society and the way it's set up for NT people that is "the problem" and don't generally believe they need to alter their behaviour in order to try to "fit in" to it. This is almost exactly the opposite of what people with ADHD want and they don't want to be shamed for that.

For ASC I can see how this suits, but as I've explained, many with ADHD choose to distance themselves from this as much as possible.

So my question would be... why would you want to go under an umbrella many people are trying to get out from under?

@AfraidToRun

Not Simon Chan at all! Just search ted talk 83,000 brain scans and it will come up!

Thank you!

@fghjk

Now it comes under the umbrella of Serious mental illness. The question is should it move to Neuro diversity like ADHD has.

But my question is why would you want it to be?

Search up "neurodiversity" and the first result:

There’s a growing push to focus on our brainn^ differences, not deficits. This wider view of "normal" is a big part of something called neurodiversity.

I cannot speak for EUPD but certainly for ADHD and I don't see it as a difference - I see it as a disability that requires treatment and adjustments. The same way someone paralysed from the waist down is disabled and requires a wheelchair and a ramp outside the library.

This is almost the complete opposite of what neurodiversity advocates push for, which is the whole "different but not deficit" or "superpower" type thing. They think it's society and the way it's set up for NT people that is "the problem" and don't generally believe they need to alter their behaviour in order to try to "fit in" to it. This is almost exactly the opposite of what people with ADHD want and they don't want to be shamed for that.

For ASC I can see how this suits, but as I've explained, many with ADHD choose to distance themselves from this as much as possible.

So my question would be... why would you want to go under an umbrella many people are trying to get out from under?

As I said the reason for changing is so that better/more appropriate help and support can be provided. Ultimately, as far as I can see that is the point of diagnosis.

Just because a condition is caused by a brain difference does not mean it is not a disability that requires adjustments. This is not the opposite. The 'super power' neuro diversity is something all ND people relate to but the people who spoke about it at the conference did not shy away from the negatives of a condition but also looked at positives. I think especially for some DC it can be very positive as often they have heard so much negative about their condition it can affect their self esteem. Certainly, among the younger people with ADHD they seem to relate to this. But absolutely, there should be no shame in reacting to your diagnosis how you wish and this was spoken about and that different people of course have different views. The point made was just because we may share a diagnosis does not mean we all think the same just like people without ADHD do not all think the same! I can understand your frustration at feeling you are under an 'umbrella' you don't belong under but I think you are mixing up diagnosis and social group. Many people with autism feel it is a disability and don't fit with the 'super power' thing. Which I totally understand and it really doesn't suit a lot of autistic children and adults.

So I think what I am talking about is a diagnostic umbrella rather than a 'social' one. I want people to be given the absolute best treatment and support possible. So whichever diagnostic umbrella a condition goes under is the one that provides that. Specifically, in terms of EUPD I don't particularly want to be under any one umbrella. I'm already autistic so under the ND one already! I'm happy to be considered to have an SMI. Many people suggest EUPD should come under ,'trauma' but I know many of us actually with EUPD don't feel that would quite fit for a variety of reasons. I do think that people can be misdiagnosed with EUPD when they have cPTSD. Also can be misdiagnosed when they are autistic. Although there are lots of us with autism and EUPD.

Sorry in the start of my post I meant the Super power things is something not all ND people relate to.

@fghjk

Now it comes under the umbrella of Serious mental illness. The question is should it move to Neuro diversity like ADHD has.

But my question is why would you want it to be?

Search up "neurodiversity" and the first result:

There’s a growing push to focus on our brainn^ differences, not deficits. This wider view of "normal" is a big part of something called neurodiversity.

I cannot speak for EUPD but certainly for ADHD and I don't see it as a difference - I see it as a disability that requires treatment and adjustments. The same way someone paralysed from the waist down is disabled and requires a wheelchair and a ramp outside the library.

This is almost the complete opposite of what neurodiversity advocates push for, which is the whole "different but not deficit" or "superpower" type thing. They think it's society and the way it's set up for NT people that is "the problem" and don't generally believe they need to alter their behaviour in order to try to "fit in" to it. This is almost exactly the opposite of what people with ADHD want and they don't want to be shamed for that.

For ASC I can see how this suits, but as I've explained, many with ADHD choose to distance themselves from this as much as possible.

So my question would be... why would you want to go under an umbrella many people are trying to get out from under?

This is how I feel about it. I think.

Having my diagnoses has made me understand myself a lot better and has caused all the puzzle pieces to fit into place, and to get treatment accordingly. When I'm in a good place I try to make the best of the situation, but I would get rid of them in a heartbeat. I do obviously think EUPD needs to be de-stigmatsed but I absolutely do not want to 'celebrate' having it, nor my ADHD. Between them they make my life a living hell at times and I long to be stable. They're absolutely disabilities not superpowers.

So many interesting points from a mix of posters coming from different perspectives. Genuinely one of the most enlightening thread I've ever read on here. I like the differentiation between 'diagnostic' and 'social' umbrellas, as well of course as the rejection of umbrellas at all.

Thanks to all posters for your contributions. I'm not sure what I think & why just yet. But I do know that it's incredibly important to have 'service-user' (for want of a better phrase; I hate that one!)-led discussion. "Nothing about us, without us" indeed...

In terms of being autistic and having EUPD, I feel for me both are a disability. I don't think that means I need to 'fit in' in the same way I wouldn't expect someone in a wheelchair to try and fit in by using the stairs instead of the ramp. Ultimately, adjustments mean we can 'join in' despite our differences. However, I can see some positives of my conditions and the type of person they make me. This has no bearing on me still wanting the best help and support and quite frankly therapy and meds available!

@Svadhyaya - I agree with you. I personally don't particularly want to celebrate being autistic or having EUPD. I'm not sure I would want to be rid of them as that feels like being rid of 'me', but I'd certainly like to get rid of the bad bits and keep the good bits! I think 'super powers' and disability are not mutually exclusive. I just see it as like strengths and weaknesses. But appreciate not everyone resonates with that. Ultimately, the main thing I want is the best support for all and if coming under a particular diagnostic 'umbrella' (whatever that may be) provides that, then I'm all for it.

@BlueSpacer

So many interesting points from a mix of posters coming from different perspectives. Genuinely one of the most enlightening thread I've ever read on here. I like the differentiation between 'diagnostic' and 'social' umbrellas, as well of course as the rejection of umbrellas at all.

Thanks to all posters for your contributions. I'm not sure what I think & why just yet. But I do know that it's incredibly important to have 'service-user' (for want of a better phrase; I hate that one!)-led discussion. "Nothing about us, without us" indeed...

I used the word 'service user' once on MN and many people were not impressed! But it is the 'in use' word everywhere and other terms don't always feel appropriate. So what I'm trying to say is don't worry about using that term! I'm so glad you have enjoyed the thread! I have too! I think it managed to get over my meltdown moment! Unfortunately, rational communication becomes much more difficult for me when I get upset

I'd forgotten that one 'nothing about us, without us'. This was what I was trying to get over to @rogueone. It is so important to listen to US. We are the 'patient experts'. We have been living this our whole lives not just 7 years while at work and then shut off from it while you eat your dinner and go to bed Telling people their lived experience wasn't true...

Feel like I've written 'umbrella' too many times...mind you, it was chucking itself down here today ☔☔☔

By the way this was a riddle an autistic man told us at the conference today.

A hairdresser says...I'd rather cut 3 Welsh people's hair than 1 English person's...why does he say that?