To admit I have no idea wtf is going on with Russia and the

[Dustlandcinderella]

I follow the news and can see that There is a lot about Russia and the Ukraine. But I can’t quite figure out what is happening , what the background is, and what the truth is (bearing in mind in any war there is propaganda on each side).

Am I the only person who doesn’t actually understand what’s going on

@OneTiredMam

Basically better enjoy our gas heating while we have it, as soon we won't have that luxury. 🤷🏻‍♀️

The west didn't need to get involved, Ukraine even said that. Sleepy Joe, Boris and Europe have sadly brought this on themselves. We're fucked.

This isn't true. We already looked the other way when Putin annexed the Crimea. Ukraine was very grateful for support from the international community. But this is larger than Ukraine. Many East European countries are very nervous of who will be next. Do you think these countries should just be sacrificed so you can keep your central heating on?

thanks so much for the Ros Atkins link,
he is great for these times, i can't be the only one with a short attention span and totally appreciate his bite size explanations

very worrying situation
gas prices also a worry

@forinborin

The current separatist movements are very longstanding. They were the ones that shot a civilian aircraft out of the sky in 2014 using Russian missiles. The regions are also Russian speaking and have a long standing grievance with the central Ukraine government.
I agree that Putin will not stop there, but there is no way he would be able to use the same strategy elsewhere, let alone in weeks. I expect it will be used to buy a few years of peace. Not a great strategy really, but sadly probably the only viable one.

OP are you any the wiser? I'm not.
And I'm listening to the news.
Maybe I find it utterly surreal. Like a chapter from some Orwellian book.
We knew there'd be trouble decades ago when we gave up our own supplies. Coal mining for a start.
Blimey I know nothing. Turned a blind eye when Thatcher was throwing her weight around.

[quote FurryAntiWaxer]@forinborin

The current separatist movements are very longstanding. They were the ones that shot a civilian aircraft out of the sky in 2014 using Russian missiles. The regions are also Russian speaking and have a long standing grievance with the central Ukraine government.
I agree that Putin will not stop there, but there is no way he would be able to use the same strategy elsewhere, let alone in weeks. I expect it will be used to buy a few years of peace. Not a great strategy really, but sadly probably the only viable one.[/quote]
Thanks for explaining the situation to me so clearly. I grew up in Donetsk, you see, and I am Russian speaking. I haven't met a single separatist in my whole life there though. Not a single one. It is not Catalonia, or Scotland, or even Crimea.

The invasion has started. This is really frightening.

Putin is leaving his legacy, he is correcting (In his own mind) as past historical mistake and believe Ukraine to be part of Russia (many moons ago along with other independent states it was part of the USSR)

What we are now seeing is an illegitimate and unlawful invasion of an independent country.
The Russians believe this to be a swift, hopefully minimal operation that will secure another country as part of their expansion (Belarus is also another Russian country pretending to be 'independent') I think Putin has seriously underestimated, Ukraine have had nearly a decade to plan for this, it is likely to be a protracted war with no ending in Europe causing serious harm to both sides. Yet again we have a bloodythirsty dictator that is unchallenged and will go to any length to secure what he believes is rightly is. I would suggest you watch is speech last night.

Don’t call it ‘the’ Ukraine. That’s from when it was a region of the Russian Empire/USSR.

Why now ? Is Putin trying to undermine domestic political critics by stirring patriotic Russian sentiment?

Putin has been in power since 1999. He's terrified of Covid & the world is trying to hurtle away from fossil fuel dependence. Do those things matter? Why pick a fight with NATO allies & stir trouble in Ukraine now ?

Its all to do with money. Basically for about 3/4 weeks of the year, every single shipping dock in Russia completely freezes over during the winter months and is unsuable. Thats why they want Ukraine back, as it has ports they can use. Russia makes tonnes of money through shipping containers and they lose billions during those weeks when the ports freeze over. Thats my guess why Putins so desperate to claim Ukraine back!

Feeling pretty glad of that Russian GCSE I'd started to think I'd never use.....

I believe he sees the West as being at a moment of weakness, Biden an old, toothless fool in decline both mentally and politically with no appetite whatsoever for playing the worlds' police (as we also saw in Obama) and he has noted the disaster elsewhere in American policy and quite frankly has decided now is the moment to challenge the world order.

Russia's economy is in the gutter, it is also in decline and ageing rapidly without obvious routes out of what is now a country in terminal decline.Putin hasn't much to lose. The new axis of China and Russia is here to stay.

But the Ukraine is a tiny country?

China is biding its time and the people in Taiwan are scared.
It is always about these awful men and their egos.

I wonder how the Russians will feel when there is serious retaliation. Moscow etc being targeted. There is a good reason why the Americans are moving their citizens out of Russia, and it is not because of the ghastly food. Ukraine will be fighting back and the gloves will come off, and I wonder how Putin will feel when his country is under siege. War is a two way street.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

Well he spent years destabilising Ukraine by sending pro-Russian Trojan horses there. It’s his thing. He also does it in the West. U.K. is awash with dirty Russian money. The oligarchs have lots of influence over our easily corruptible government. They are even buying our media outlets. They use bots to influence online discourse to cause division. Their biggest win so far was Brexit (with support of paid stooges in senior positions) to destabilise the E.U as we are easier to pick off and control when divided.

If he’d spend 10% of his energy on building his country up, building industries, creating jobs and wealth for his people, he’d have a fantastic legacy but I guess it’s easier to just bang fists and break things.

Can always rely on Jackie Weaver to talk sense

@yaaarrrp

Its all to do with money. Basically for about 3/4 weeks of the year, every single shipping dock in Russia completely freezes over during the winter months and is unsuable. Thats why they want Ukraine back, as it has ports they can use. Russia makes tonnes of money through shipping containers and they lose billions during those weeks when the ports freeze over. Thats my guess why Putins so desperate to claim Ukraine back!

That’s one motivation (warm water port) but it’s not all about that or all about money.

Putin’s an old Soviet hand, former KGB man and I’m sure he’s keen to see a return to the days of client states on the borders.

FurryAntiWaxer
@forinborin*

The current separatist movements are very longstanding. They were the ones that shot a civilian aircraft out of the sky in 2014 using Russian missiles. The regions are also Russian speaking and have a long standing grievance with the central Ukraine government.
I agree that Putin will not stop there, but there is no way he would be able to use the same strategy elsewhere, let alone in weeks. I expect it will be used to buy a few years of peace. Not a great strategy really, but sadly probably the only viable one.
Thanks for explaining the situation to me so clearly. I grew up in Donetsk, you see, and I am Russian speaking. I haven't met a single separatist in my whole life there though. Not a single one. It is not Catalonia, or Scotland, or even Crimea.*

Best post today 😂

Ukraine has a long, long (and very interesting) history before the Russians ever came along. I’d recommend ‘Borderland’ as a good book to read.

@SookieHouseboat

Is that you, Liz?

The UK does not need to be part of the EU to be friends and allies of Europe!

Their biggest win so far was Brexit (with support of paid stooges in senior positions) to destabilise the E.U as we are easier to pick off and control when divided This inaccurate conspiracy theory has been tried over and over again with successive elections, even the best bots in the world can't actually vote! Johnson won a landslide in order for us to leave, not on his magical leadership ability! Elections were held to check that the UK actually wanted to leave. The polls have barely shifted in seven years in favour of leaving (the same can be said for other European countries, but they are not blessed with the opportunity of a referendum - and nor would we had it not been for Nigel Farage chipping away at the Tory vote).
The long running British dissatisfaction with the EU has nothing at all to do with Russian imperialism, and everything to do with self governance.

Already it has been decided that the EU are going to invite the UK to join a new security alliance, and in fact wish to ask the UK to head the organisation as an olive branch. The Russian infractions have actually helped to heal wounds from brexit and focus minds, not the other way around! The EU, UK and US do not have the comfort and luxury of division any longer, the war is on the borders and closing in.

I agree wholeheartedly that we ate in a week position to stand up to Russia...but stuff up to them we must. Not only for the reasons already alluded to here, but because China will be watching our response very carefully. Their expansionist plans are much greater than taking Taiwan.

Yes as pp said the timing of this is critical. Its no coincidence Putin has chosen now - post Brexit, post(ish) Covid, etc. The west has long been governed by those happy to take Russian and Chinese money for giving them power and influence over us.

China will be watching and waiting the perfect moment to make their moves. This could easily go very badly for the West and its allies.

And Ukraine deserves better.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon not through bot voting but by influencing how people voted through misinformation and propaganda. That we do have evidence for, in both the US and the UK.

Ukraine has a long, long (and very interesting) history before the Russians ever came along. I’d recommend ‘Borderland’ as a good book to read.
A good book indeed, and I linked a shorter article upthread, and will do it again. The article even starts with the same assertion as this thread - "but it is a tiny country".

www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/12/west-gets-ukraine-wrong-helps-putin-little-russia-00007977?fbclid=IwAR2DuBhlFwuRt9NP_Q-JRT4EsAOzKEDu22crPa0fOC76qbbeCc1oqIqUVew

My understanding was that when Gorbachov disbanded the soviet union, he agreed with the American presidency at the time - I think it was Reagan, that although the Soviet Union was no longer existed, in order to save the Russians further embarrassment no attempt would be made by NATO or europe to include any former soviet union states.

A verbal agreement was made at the time, of course 30 years later a number of former soviet states are in the EU, which means that they are also in NATO.

Not saying that Putin is reasonable, of course he isn't, he's a stark raving lunatic, but there is a back story to all this.

a number of former soviet states are in the EU, which means that they are also in NATO.

Haven’t got time to see if there are exceptions and I very much accept this is me being picky point and open to correction, but I don’t think being in the EU automatically means being in NATO…