To admit I have no idea wtf is going on with Russia and the

[Dustlandcinderella]

I follow the news and can see that There is a lot about Russia and the Ukraine. But I can’t quite figure out what is happening , what the background is, and what the truth is (bearing in mind in any war there is propaganda on each side).

Am I the only person who doesn’t actually understand what’s going on

-* Germany

@Keepyourheadscrewedon Putin planned this invasion long ago, he has amassed the troops since May of last year this is true, but does not undermine the fact that negotiation is going to work better than better than force, history has borne that out, that was one of the lessons learned from WW1 and 2. To negotiate you need a better understanding of Putin's motivations than you have.

Do you think force by sanctions will work?
Do you think military force is a good idea?

You see Putin's actions as only aggressive and evil and you want to stop him. Even if you were 100 percent correct, unless you think we can effectively take over annex Russia (and China for that matter) your way will not work. You keep referring to WW1 and 2 but your proposals are that we do what we learned not to do as a result of WW1 and 2.

The 'diplomacy' about NATO and the minsk agreement was just abit of light entertainment along the way for Putin the way Putin sees this is fundamentally different from how the West leaders see it. There has been very little effort to resolve this by negotiation so far. Just as one example, you have said that if Putin goes into Ukraine he will be surrounded on all sides by NATO - using this as evidence that he is not serious about the Minsk agreement - but one of his stated grievances is this very fact, that NATO said they would not expand in the 1990s and they have done so several times, this is one of his current grievances.

Why does it even matter to putin if nato expands? They are a defensive alliance - not likely to ever use their military power beyond protecting countries from being invaded.
It is not up to putin to decide what security alliances independent countries choose to join.
He is throwing his weight around - but NATO was never the issue. Expansion is clearly the aim, not agreements new or old.
If I lived next to an aggressive autocracy with nuclear weapons I would be looking to buy some security! Who wouldn’t faced with hostile war mongering neighbours.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

Are you German by any chance wandering because you seem to determined to ignore the facts and pretend that ferment did not cause both. WWs!

I agree with most of what you've said re the situation in Russia, and I'm Scottish, not German, but you're fundamentally wrong about Germany starting WW1. It's incredibly complex, and involves treaties / arms races on both sides.

You're also wrong about Trump, if you've seen his statements, you'll see he's pretty much behind Putin all the way.

I did see the trump statement this morning, and quite frankly I am horrified. He is celebrating Putins ‘genius’

Putin sees the EU as weak and divided and Germany in particular is vulnerable now to the fall out. He despises NATO. Macron and France are both naive and irrelevant and Macron has embarrassed himself on the would stage by playing the hero Macron has tried to negotiate. India is calling for calm and negotiation. China is calling for negotiation. Your views are very, very simplistic and subjective and also dangerous - it is this sort of one sided rhetoric which causes wars. You are angry about Putin propaganda, yet what you say could be seen as propaganda too.

Why are you asking if a poster is German? It is really offensive you know, just like it is offensive saying to me that I am a puppet and cannot think for myself. Everyone who agrees with you is right, anyone who doesn't is a puppet - is that what you think? Do you think that is healthy?

I think your messaging on here is disturbing socks. Every country is calling for negotiation, everyone wants a peaceful solution - except for Russia that is.

Why does it even matter to putin if nato expands? They are a defensive alliance - not likely to ever use their military power beyond protecting countries from being invaded the same reason why US didn't want Russian weapons in Cuba. You have 2 neighbours - if one expands the other may feel threatened.
It is not up to putin to decide what security alliances independent countries choose to join but if nato has expanded and got close, against agreements, it creates a very difficult situation - which is explained in the link I put upthread.

If I lived next to an aggressive autocracy with nuclear weapons I would be looking to buy some security! Who wouldn’t faced with hostile war mongering neighbours and this is broadly what putin is saying about the US and NATO..... and there we have it, a difficult complex situation

@Wanderingowl I'm afraid we are wasting our time, some people have never heard of Austro-Hungarian Empire, Serbia and the various alliances formed in the early years of the 20thC.

Yesterday a poster was calling for Trump to be in the Whitehouse, now Trump is found to be a Putin supporter, calling him a genius make your mind up!!!

As for calling other posters German, i was called a Russian troll, like Putin, some people do like opposition and seek to remove it.

On France, they are sending troops to Romania to re enforce NATO's eastern borders and with one of NATOs biggest military forces.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

I think your messaging on here is disturbing socks. Every country is calling for negotiation, everyone wants a peaceful solution - except for Russia that is.

Disturbing, really? Firstly, you are incorrect, Russia has asked for negotiation and Biden has refused. Secondly, your view is that Russia is bullshitting and we need to stop him, so you are most definitely not calling for negotiation.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

“ Macron and France are both naive and irrelevant and Macron has embarrassed himself on the would stage by playing the hero”

Wrong,..

@Keepyourheadscrewedon also, the fact is the West has historically been pretty bad at predicting what Putin will do. We don't know for sure what is going to happen - you don't, I don't. What I do know is that sanctions, sending in foreign secretaries for discussions without the foreign secretary having a proper grasp of the facts, etc etc has not helped.

The US ruled out negotiation this morning claiming it was pointless. Indeed it does seem to be now, Russia troops continue to March across Ukraine.
Putin is just buying time until the military operations are in place.

Ukraine has just announced a state of emergency and you are seriously suggesting talks are still an option? Ridiculous.
Seriously ridiculous. You don’t hold a gun at the head of someone and tell them to keep talking. That’s called blackmail.
If you don’t agree to our demands we will blow your head off. Back in the real world no one outside of Russia would call that ‘diplomacy’

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-ukraine-news-war-putin-invasion-b2021232.html?amp

@Jusmeee

It's Ukraine not the Ukraine

On a side note, does anyone know why so many people think it's called The Ukraine? I actually did myself until I went there a few years ago and realised it was just Ukraine.

I think we should take a moment out to think about the mothers, the small children and babies in Ukraine that are now in such terrible danger.

We can argue about historical points and wars, but back to today Ukraine is expecting to be attacked in the next 24 hours - poor poor souls just living their lives, totally harmless and innocent do not deserve to be killed and maimed. I can’t actually believe any country would do this to their close neighbours, to invade a peaceful defenceless country and the blood shed that will surely follow.

I am very very sad for Ukraine - I hope the world stands up for them

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

Why does it even matter to putin if nato expands? They are a defensive alliance - not likely to ever use their military power beyond protecting countries from being invaded. It is not up to putin to decide what security alliances independent countries choose to join. He is throwing his weight around - but NATO was never the issue. Expansion is clearly the aim, not agreements new or old. If I lived next to an aggressive autocracy with nuclear weapons I would be looking to buy some security! Who wouldn’t faced with hostile war mongering neighbours.

It matters a great deal, Russia was promised via a gentleman's agreement that NATO would not expand eastward, but it has done so, to the point that it borders Russia. Effectively the west have reneged on their promise not to expand. Thats why Putin is annoyed. Imagine if Russia/China etc had a military alliance like NATO and expanded westward to the borders of France, Germany, UK etc, then I'm sure they would feel threatened too.

The US threw its weight around too during the 2000' when it invaded Iraq all on the pretence of WMD, and without UN backing.

Parents in Ukraine are being asked to sew labels in their childrens clothes with their blood type.
It's so bloody awful, he won't stop at Ukraine, Ukraine will be the doorway to other former Russian states.
If his friends in China get involved then God help us all.

mulliner- would you at least show some decency? The thread has moved on and we are considering the terrible situation for the mothers and children of a country that is just about to be invaded through no fault of their own.
ruby that is so awful - so chilling. I just can’t imagine what it must feel like to be there right now. I have candles lit for them here.
We plan to go ti Poland to help out the humanitarian effort that will be needed.

@Rubyupbeat

Parents in Ukraine are being asked to sew labels in their childrens clothes with their blood type. It's so bloody awful, he won't stop at Ukraine, Ukraine will be the doorway to other former Russian states. If his friends in China get involved then God help us all.

Not with just 150k troops he wont, thats not enough to hold Ukraine.

Other former states are NATO members, which is why he has never turned his attentions to the Baltic states, he does not want a war with the USA.

I read that citizens and even children are arming themselves now. Not just the Ukrainian army.

Trump is found to be a Putin supporter

To be fair - Trump imposed sanctions on Nord Stream 2 and Biden overturned them:

December 2019
Christmas came early for Ukraine and much of Europe after US President Donald Trump signed an omnibus defense bill that included sanctions stopping completion of a major new Russian gas pipeline to Germany.

www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/us-sanctions-block-putins-pipeline/

May 2021
WASHINGTON — The Biden administration has decided to waive sanctions against the company overseeing the construction of Russia's Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline to Germany, despite bipartisan opposition in Congress and appeals from Eastern European governments.

Republican lawmakers immediately accused the administration of handing Russian President Vladimir Putin a major political victory.

www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-comes-under-fire-congress-after-waiving-sanctions-russian-gas-n1267975

Acquiescing to Berlin, emboldening Moscow and squeezing Kyiv: Biden and Nordstream 2.

thehill.com/opinion/international/564069-acquiescing-to-berlin-emboldening-moscow-and-squeezing-kyiv-biden-and

I have candles lit for them here

I'm sure that will do a great deal of good.

To be fair - Trump imposed sanctions on Nord Stream 2 and Biden overturned them

Very easy for a country that is self sufficient in gas to order around a continent that isn't.

As a former UK ambassador to Russia said "Russia, over the decades, has proven to be a very reliable partner in the supply of gas to Europe"

No Russian gas means super high energy prices here in the UK, as gas is a globally priced commodity.

It will take trillions and many years to build enough green/nuclear capacity and a complete re build of UK housing stock which is primarily heated by gas, not electricity.

But if we are are to get all high and mighty over where we get our energy from, we should start at the Arab states and their appalling HR records... nah thought not, maybe light a candle for the children of Yemen?

@Rubyupbeat

Parents in Ukraine are being asked to sew labels in their childrens clothes with their blood type. It's so bloody awful, he won't stop at Ukraine, Ukraine will be the doorway to other former Russian states. If his friends in China get involved then God help us all.

I can't see China getting involved. They don't have a particularly big history of foreign intervention. They are all about their economy.

You can read below which European countries aren’t part of NATO or which have different peace agreements

‘’Six EU member states, all who have declared their non-alignment with military alliances, are not NATO members: Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta, and Sweden. Additionally, Switzerland,[1] which is surrounded by the EU, has also maintained their neutrality by remaining a non-EU-member. All these countries except Cyprus have joined the Partnership for Peace programme, while Sweden and Finland signed a specific host country support agreement with NATO in 2014. NATO has also diplomatic relations with the 5 European microstates[citation needed]: Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco, San Marino and Vatican City.‘’

For Austria in particular, agreeing to be ‘neutral’ was a big part of them being allowed independence again in 1955, 10 years after the end of ww2. In those 10 years it was still jointly occupied by America, British, French and soviet.