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Original poster

To admit I have no idea wtf is going on with Russia and the

538 replies

Dustlandcinderella · 21/02/2022 22:54

I follow the news and can see that There is a lot about Russia and the Ukraine. But I can’t quite figure out what is happening , what the background is, and what the truth is (bearing in mind in any war there is propaganda on each side).

Am I the only person who doesn’t actually understand what’s going on

OP posts:
Alexandra2001 · 23/02/2022 10:04

Hitler started WW1 and WW2 right?

enjoy the rest of thread, i have better things to do than argue with anyone who believes this or as i suspect isn't being totally serious.

MGMidget · 23/02/2022 10:06

Keepyourheadscrewedon, I am not sure Trump would have done anything. He looked like in the pocket of the Russians and they ‘had’ something on him!

Alexandra2001 · 23/02/2022 10:06

@Keepyourheadscrewedon Its a bit cold here in St Peters, so a cuppa keeps me warm and a swig of vodka to keep me sane when i come across crazy people on MN.

Keepyourheadscrewedon · 23/02/2022 10:09

I would be swigging vodka in your position as well - to be fair - its not every day your leader starts a war.

notimagain · 23/02/2022 10:11

I’m absolutely not mixing anything up and you have now clarified your comment…thanks…

The point I am making is that I suspect if you ran a straw poll in this place on what “ballistic missiles” do or what “warheads” are I would put money on the majority automatically making a nuclear connection and they would wrong to do so.

Yes, I’m being picky because IMHO we all some understanding of what the reality of this is and at least be able to run a credibility check on what the MSM/politicians say.

This is really important…one classic example for it being so is the way many in the west (some public, certainly some MPs) got spooked initially at least into supporting Gulf War Two because they didn’t realise that what they were being sold in the UN/HoC/MSM was highly questionable…all they heard was buzz words and phrases such as “improved Scud” “delivery systems”, “weapons of mass destruction,” “45 minutes…”..many no understanding of what the terms meant or if they were credible, they just heard something scary.

I’d hate for us to go down that road again.

Keepyourheadscrewedon · 23/02/2022 10:12

I hope seriously that the people of Russia will be okay, both in St Peters where you are Alex, and elsewhere. They are also innocent and do not deserve to be terrified in their beds of retribution and where this is all leading. Their children and babies deserve to be safe. There are no winners in war.

Keepyourheadscrewedon · 23/02/2022 10:14

I totally agree not the wrong information can lead to very very poor outcomes, and everything should be double and triple checked for accuracy, independent observers are invaluable in this instance. On the ground fact checking with no agenda apart from to report on actual facts.
You are right to ask for sources, and everyone on here should be able to post links to verify any claims/information they are posting.

Alexandra2001 · 23/02/2022 10:22

You are right to ask for sources, and everyone on here should be able to post links to verify any claims/information they are posting

Ha ha lets see the one which shows Hitler started WW1 and that Putin intends to take over ALL the ex Soviet states?

He cannot because he doesn't possess the capability to do so with just 150k troops (which took him 10months to amass) and in most cases, equipment that is way behind anything the 'west has.

Sorry supervisor came in, and forced me at gun point to reply to you.

Keepyourheadscrewedon · 23/02/2022 10:23

I hope you feeling okay Alex, genuinely.

Wanderingowl · 23/02/2022 11:13

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

Correction Hitler did not start WW1 just WW2. Germany was responsible for starting both wars.
What? That is such a very, very, very weird oversimplification to the point of utter falsity. That's a level of understanding that I would honestly be disappointed in from my 9 year old. For it to come from an adult who is trying to use these historical events as a comparison for current events is honestly concerning. And so very indicative of why we are where we are right now. Your assertions about WW1 come from an understanding based on propaganda from over a century ago. Your assertions about current events come from the propaganda of today. Because the news coming from our corporate and state medias is every bit as much propaganda as that being disseminated in Russia now and that which was disseminated on every side before during and after the World Wars too.

The foundations of World War One were essentially set in place at the end of the Crimean War. The shift in power structures during Crimea resulted in the settlement of the alliances that along with the tensions caused by barely abated colonialist expansionism led the "world" to war in 1914.

But if you want to look at any one action as the beginning of World War One, it was in fact the Austro-Hungarian invasion of Serbia on July 28th 1914. While Germany was allied with the Austro-Hungarians and could possibly have prevented the war by withdrawing their support following the assassination of the heir to the Austro-Hunagrain throne. (Franz Ferdinand not being a minor aristocrat as I learned in school, but rather one of the highest ranking people in the world.) It was absolutely not German expansionism that sparked the war. That's bullshit propaganda from 1914 that has no place being repeated in 2022.

Anyone who does think Germany started WW1, needs to accept that they have swallowed generations old propaganda. About events that have since been so studied and written upon that it's easy for anyone with a few hours to spare to learn about what actually happened in greater depth. And maybe needs to consider that if it's so easy to keep believing in old, easily debunked propaganda, just how much of the opinion on today's events is based on modern propaganda. Propaganda that it's much harder to get to the bottom of due to it's still unfolding nature and none of us being able to have the benefit of hindsight.

socksnjumpers · 23/02/2022 11:21

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

I think ordinary Russians must also be horrified, they are not stupid and will see the propaganda for what it is. They will know precisely what Putin is doing and are largely helpless to stop him.

I have Russian friends here in the UK and they are unsurprised by his actions. He does far worse to doctors/activists etc every day. People are regularly pushed out of windows or are involved in accidents because they express even the smallest dissent.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon this is a video done by France 24 (NB - French, mainstream) last week about what Russians think, it will give you a different perspective:
Keepyourheadscrewedon · 23/02/2022 11:25

I don’t believe any of the propaganda that you post socks, and I won’t be watching it

socksnjumpers · 23/02/2022 11:30

@Keepyourheadscrewedon following on from what other posters have said, if you want a decent link to the history of Ukraine vs Russian, 2013 to the present day I can provide one from a decent source. It is worth looking at what is being reported by news agency outside the UK and the US - for example there is an Indian news agency which is award winning, and India is very commited to neutrality.

Diplomacy is being urged from many quarters, not because people are "pro Russian" but because sanctions do not work and risk further instability. My concern about Truss, Biden et al is that they don't have a decent handle on the issues and I don't think either of them understand about sanctions vs diplomacy. Macron was involved in negotiating Minsk, I think, and the French govmt website has a decent and balanced review of the situation but at the same time they have commitments to allies and so I don't know what move they will make in future.

In relation to doctors jumping out of windows, it was reported to have happened 3 times and there was and is speculation you are right - but there are shades of grey here, and complexities, and the same applies to our political and human rights behaviour in the West. But confusing these issues with the current crises will not help.

The Russians you know will evidently have their own views but just because they are Russian will not mean they are necessarily well informed?

Keepyourheadscrewedon · 23/02/2022 11:33

I entirely disagree with your post wandering of course I am not going to post every detail about both world wars!! We know that Germany invaded France - France was allied to Russia during the First World War. Germany were looking to expand/secure their eastern flank. Yes the assassination appeared to be the catalyst but the rumblings were there years before.
The Second World War Germany invaded Poland under hitlers direction - and the purification of race as we all know.
On both counts Germany started the world wars - you can call it propaganda but the rest of us know the truth.

socksnjumpers · 23/02/2022 11:33

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

I don’t believe any of the propaganda that you post socks, and I won’t be watching it
It is a news report by France 24 ie a MAINSTREAM news agency IN FRANCE.

It is NOT propaganda.

As I explained in my last post France is not pro Russian.

socksnjumpers · 23/02/2022 11:35

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

I entirely disagree with your post wandering of course I am not going to post every detail about both world wars!! We know that Germany invaded France - France was allied to Russia during the First World War. Germany were looking to expand/secure their eastern flank. Yes the assassination appeared to be the catalyst but the rumblings were there years before. The Second World War Germany invaded Poland under hitlers direction - and the purification of race as we all know. On both counts Germany started the world wars - you can call it propaganda but the rest of us know the truth.
I really think you need to take a step back here, keepyourheadscrewedon people are trying to help you understand the issues better, not brainwash you.
socksnjumpers · 23/02/2022 11:41

I am looking at the French position on Russia at the moment and I think that this is actually a pretty helpful assessment of what is happening in Ukraine (going back to the point of the thread):

www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/ukraine/situation-in-ukraine-what-is/

There are also links to interviews with diplomats in the same website

@Keepyourheadscrewedon this is NOT propaganda!!

Isitsixoclockalready · 23/02/2022 11:42

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

I entirely disagree with your post wandering of course I am not going to post every detail about both world wars!! We know that Germany invaded France - France was allied to Russia during the First World War. Germany were looking to expand/secure their eastern flank. Yes the assassination appeared to be the catalyst but the rumblings were there years before. The Second World War Germany invaded Poland under hitlers direction - and the purification of race as we all know. On both counts Germany started the world wars - you can call it propaganda but the rest of us know the truth.
Whilst being well aware of Germany's guilt during WW2 - I'm not sure why they'd be keen on a conflict with Russia now, especially given the suspension of the extremely lucrative Nord Stream pipeline.
socksnjumpers · 23/02/2022 11:54

@ChardonnaysPetDragon I was talking about the various translations of the speeches on youtube, not the google translation

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 23/02/2022 12:05

[quote socksnjumpers]@ChardonnaysPetDragon I was talking about the various translations of the speeches on youtube, not the google translation[/quote]
Oh ok. Haven't seen those, but again the Google Translate version of the paragraph above is quite good.

Wanderingowl · 23/02/2022 12:07

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

I entirely disagree with your post wandering of course I am not going to post every detail about both world wars!! We know that Germany invaded France - France was allied to Russia during the First World War. Germany were looking to expand/secure their eastern flank. Yes the assassination appeared to be the catalyst but the rumblings were there years before. The Second World War Germany invaded Poland under hitlers direction - and the purification of race as we all know. On both counts Germany started the world wars - you can call it propaganda but the rest of us know the truth.
You don't get to disagree on facts that you are ignorant on. Actual things happened in history. While there is obviously room for different interpretations of the backgrounds and motivations there is still a very real, completely objective sequence of events that started the war. The Austro-Hungarian empire's invasion of Serbia was the invasion that started the war. You clearly haven't got the first clue about what you are talking about. You are genuinely completely and utterly ignorant on any of this history. Admit it. You didn't actually know about the July 28th invasion of Serbia did you???? So how can you suddenly learn you don't have a clue and still bed down in your ignorance? It's honestly this kind of wilful obstinance by people that allows these constant fucking wars to continue.
Keepyourheadscrewedon · 23/02/2022 12:12

Putin sees the EU as weak and divided and Germany in particular is vulnerable now to the fall out. He despises NATO.
Macron and France are both naive and irrelevant and Macron has embarrassed himself on the would stage by playing the hero.

Keepyourheadscrewedon · 23/02/2022 12:12

Unsuccessfully I might add

Keepyourheadscrewedon · 23/02/2022 12:15

Are you German by any chance wandering because you seem to determined to ignore the facts and pretend that ferment did not cause both. WWs!