To admit I have no idea wtf is going on with Russia and the

[Dustlandcinderella]

I follow the news and can see that There is a lot about Russia and the Ukraine. But I can’t quite figure out what is happening , what the background is, and what the truth is (bearing in mind in any war there is propaganda on each side).

Am I the only person who doesn’t actually understand what’s going on

I do believe you end of I just wanted too read more about it

I’ve thought of an analogy that may explain what’s going on over there and put it in context for us, and perhaps those who know better can improve / correct / throw it out?

Suppose the U.K. breaks up: Northern Ireland go, Scotland goes, Wales eventually pulls away too. Perhaps the regions of England grow stronger and we have mayors or something in Mercia and Northumbria and York.

Then someone comes along quoting Wessex power and works to retain the regions. Then turns to Wales. No obviously it’s no small thing to reestablish Wales as independent. Lots of English speakers as well as Welsh, multiple shades of opinions about the situation, multiple torn loyalties. Perhaps some right wingers Welsh go mad and kill some pro-reunion English people in Cardiff. There would be power struggles and perhaps Cardiff big men squirrel some funds out of the situation into Swiss banks, snd as a whole Wales refuses to shoulder any burden of whole-U.K. debt.

Would our putative new leader quoting Wessex and Alfred the Great be permitted to invade Wales if they wanted to join the EU? Would they get away with saying the Welsh were part of the English people and had no independent existence? What if Swansea was a bit torn and declared independence, would we support troops in there? Would Scotland and Ireland not get very nervous about the whole affair?

With many apologies to the Welsh, whom I rather like.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

The whole NATO on the Russian doorstep was a ruse, once Russia have invaded Ukraine fully there will be three NATO countries on the doorstep of Russia, all with guns and missiles pointed directly at them.

Putin has miscalculated the resistance. He has overplayed his hand. There is still time for him to salvage the situation by remaining the contested areas of Ukraine and going no further, depending on his confidence of success ~ it will either be a rerun of Georgia or we are about to see the biggest problems we have seen in the world since the WW2. It is no exaggeration to say we are now in a period of real risk and danger.

Fantastic post, and one which I agree with wholeheartedly!!

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

What is different on the news out of interest cross are you in Russia? Because there you will hear that this is all the fault of the west for threatening Russia with NATO and supplying Ukraine with nuclear weapons and genocide against Russian separatists. The brain washing machine is in full swing in the last 24 hours - full swing, but Putin doesn't answer to anyone so I wonder why he is even bothering to try and convince the Russians that he is invading Ukraine for their benefit!

Agreed.

Minsk agreements were killed long time ago by Ukraine itself not honouring it!

He doesn't say that though, he does not use Ukraine" but the "current Kiev authorities".

It's a subtle different, but there is a difference.

difference

@BerylStrip Well, Beryl, it looks as though you are getting the sanctions you wanted, according to Biden's latest speech.

What worries me is that the sanctions are going to be of less concern to Russia is China steps into the breach to protect Russia, which is what Asia news anticipates.

Especially with China not being as vulnerable to sanctions threats as it was in 2014 apparently.

Bloody hell. Diplomacy looking a whole lot better as an option finally or are you still warmongering?

Keepyourheadscrewedon

What is different on the news out of interest cross are you in Russia? Because there you will hear that this is all the fault of the west for threatening Russia with NATO and supplying Ukraine with nuclear weapons and genocide against Russian separatists. The brain washing machine is in full swing in the last 24 hours - full swing, but Putin doesn't answer to anyone so I wonder why he is even bothering to try and convince the Russians that he is invading Ukraine for their benefit!

Most Russians have blamed the west and also Ukraine for the Ukrainian crisis for many months. Not the last 24 hours.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Minsk agreements were killed long time ago by Ukraine itself not honouring it!

He doesn't say that though, he does not use Ukraine" but the "current Kiev authorities".

It's a subtle different, but there is a difference.

I thought he said that there had been violations both sides but that he had been asking international bodies to step in so that the agreement was kept to.

Trouble is, the translations of his speeches are not always brilliant especially when done simultaneously. I am nearly fluent in a second language (not Russian) and when I hear translations of speeches in that language they are quite often not very good, sometimes really quite way off in meaning.

What I am really not sure about is just WHY the west (USA and allies) is interested in Ukraine? Why not just accept that Crimea and Eastern Ukraine could be Russian?

Is it because USA needs foreign enemies to function - without a cold war or proxy wars in other countries they just don't know what to do with themselves?

Because this is Eastern Europe. Ukraine is one of many states there that declared independence from Russia and wanted to join the EU. It is the borders of the EU: it was our borders not very long ago. We cannot ignore Europe.

You might as well ask why just accept that Poland could be Russian, or Finland, or Sweden. Why not? In fact, what the hell, give them East Germany again! Why not take France too while they're at it?

Small print before someone picks me up on that: yes East Germany was never part of the USSR, but it was behind the Iron Curtain and under their influence. (and I meant, why NOT accept)

Putin is bored. He just wants to flex his muscles. Pic of a man.

Pig!

I am fully fluent in Russian, and the Google translation was quite good actually.

It's Beryl's interpretation of it that was off, using "Ukraine" instead of "current authorities in Kiev". The two are different things.

@ParsleySageRosemary

I’ve thought of an analogy that may explain what’s going on over there and put it in context for us, and perhaps those who know better can improve / correct / throw it out?

Suppose the U.K. breaks up: Northern Ireland go, Scotland goes, Wales eventually pulls away too. Perhaps the regions of England grow stronger and we have mayors or something in Mercia and Northumbria and York.

Then someone comes along quoting Wessex power and works to retain the regions. Then turns to Wales. No obviously it’s no small thing to reestablish Wales as independent. Lots of English speakers as well as Welsh, multiple shades of opinions about the situation, multiple torn loyalties. Perhaps some right wingers Welsh go mad and kill some pro-reunion English people in Cardiff. There would be power struggles and perhaps Cardiff big men squirrel some funds out of the situation into Swiss banks, snd as a whole Wales refuses to shoulder any burden of whole-U.K. debt.

Would our putative new leader quoting Wessex and Alfred the Great be permitted to invade Wales if they wanted to join the EU? Would they get away with saying the Welsh were part of the English people and had no independent existence? What if Swansea was a bit torn and declared independence, would we support troops in there? Would Scotland and Ireland not get very nervous about the whole affair?

With many apologies to the Welsh, whom I rather like.

Using your analogy, Russia's role would be more like that of the EU coming in to protect Wales as it maintains it's independence from the UK. Donbas declared itself independent of the Ukraine 8 years ago. The Ukraine wants it back and Russia is recognising it as independent from the Ukraine and helping it defend itself. This really isn't some black and white NATO, the great bastion of liberty, finally standing up to the evil Volodya. We are being presented with one very, very carefully curated side to this clusterfuck. The reality is an awful lot more nuanced.

As well as that, your analogy really is weirdly ignorant of all that the British Army has done in Ireland/Northern Ireland. It's holding on to disputed territory and was ready to fuck over a really hard won peace due to not considering that the border the UK created between Ireland/N.I is also now the UK/EU land border. The UK tried really hard to bully Ireland, in the same way it always had done and when Ireland didn't back down, threats to starve the country, which the UK has actually done previously in an act recognised as genocide, were discussed in parliament. The UK is a massive hypocrite here.

I'm not saying that there are easy solutions to either Northern Ireland or to Donbas. But pretending this is a case of freedom saving goodies against freedom destroying baddies, means that no solution ever can be found.

Ukraine not part of NATO.
UK not part of the EU
Not our problem 🤷‍♂️

@LemonViolet

I have learned that it is now considered offensive to say “the” Ukraine, as it disrespects the autonomy of the Ukrainian nation and people. So just Ukraine. Kinda obvious when you think about it, but until you do think about it a lot of us automatically say “the” because it’s what we’re used to hearing. Every days a school day!

OP just google “why does Russia want war with Ukraine” and there are hundreds of news articles from the past few days, from all different sources across the political spectrum, U.K., USA etc - read a few to get a few takes on it.

Apparently (according to Stephen Fry and the QI elves) The Ukraine (or The Sudan etc) means the geographical area, not the country. If you refer to the country, then you omit "The". Is that the same when we refer to The UK I wonder?

Sorry, I could have been totally misinformed by QI, your explanation seems just as legit. I just thought I'd mention it.

As well as that, your analogy really is weirdly ignorant of all that the British Army has done in Ireland/Northern Ireland.
… or I could have avoided using Nrn Ireland as a place of high tensions that far surpass my diplomatic skills for a simple analogy, which was probably a bad idea at all. It is the place to illustrate tensions, although there are some differences.

Such an interesting thread. Marking my place.

it takes the heat off Boris though

What I am really not sure about is just WHY the west (USA and allies) is interested in Ukraine? Why not just accept that Crimea and Eastern Ukraine could be Russian?

If Putin is allowed to carve up Ukraine at will, what is to stop him doing the same to Finland, Poland, Germany, Bulgaria, Latvia etc etc

Of course you can not ever allow tin pot dictators the opportunity to land grab at will! I am amazed this is not obvious or were you just joking? Hard to tell.

Yes, they just want some living space, there are historic links with this region … does any of this sound familiar?

@Beancounter1

What I am really not sure about is just WHY the west (USA and allies) is interested in Ukraine? Why not just accept that Crimea and Eastern Ukraine could be Russian?

Is it because USA needs foreign enemies to function - without a cold war or proxy wars in other countries they just don't know what to do with themselves?

This is exactly how World War One and World War Two started when Germany started annexing neighbouring countries it was initially ignored, as it was "German" counties. If we don't stop this now it would be difficult to see where it could end.