Talking to manager's manager / going above your line manager

[Quirkyme]

Evening,

Has anyone gone above their manager and raised concerns about serious issues, after insufficient action/nothing changing after spoken to their manager first numerous times?

What was the outcome for you - was it worse with your manager after, or a successful outcome for you regarding the concerns raised and issues?

All experiences welcome.

I have done this and a meeting has been arranged for later on this week, however, having spoke to a friend, they've advised not to do this because "my manager will make my life hell"? (Or at the least has the power to after this)

@blueshoes

How close is the manager to their manager? If they have known each other a long time and the senior manager trusts the manager, it is far easier for the manager to paint you as a troublemaker and then make your life difficult.

If you want to raise it, it better be serious enough to warrant the manager getting dismissed under the firm's policies. If not, why bother to bring a heap of pain on yourself, including a toxic atmosphere with your manager?

What do you hope to achieve by going over your manager's head?

Morning

The situation is very serious, which is why I'm having to go above the manager's head. And why I addressed it with the manager multiple times.

I cannot do my role, and the individual by their constant lack of following processes is putting potentially vulnerable groups at risk.

So yeah I'll take that risk of going above their head.

@Wiredforsound

OP, you should keep your appointment. When discussing the situation stick to the facts, give examples (with dates if possible), discuss the impact the actions have on the team, and keep it constructive, offering possible solutions for what you want to see changed, and focus on the actions, not the person. For example, ‘rosters need to be communicated a month in advance. Because this is failing to happen on at least 50% of occasions it means that it is really difficult to schedule workload planning, so there are continuous delays to production. This has a negative impact of customer satisfaction and we had 6 complaints last week. This, as you can see, is wasting a lot of time for everyone as we’re having to deal with the complaints, and it’s causing a great deal of stress amongst the team. It would be good to get a commitment to make sure they were done on time and for that action to be monitored to ensure it is maintained’.

Thank you. Yes I'm going to keep the appt.

As much as I will focus on the processes l, I can't avoid making about the person - their the only person on the team doing this, and that alone has huge implications.

The person is a senior and has been in the role for a long time, there's no excuse. Not even new people would do what she's doing , continuously, due to the risk

I did it, it nearly ended my career and took me years to get away from. It seldom goes well. Nearly all companies will listen to the managers view also and take their side. Even in my situation where they knew full well the manager was beyond shite and they had a problem, they still listened to him as he attacked me back, said I had a bad attitude and was a shit employee. I was shocked they believed him as I was a top performer and had been for years.

Ultimately they take the managers side.

I did. I work for a large multinational company. I already had a good relationship with our director (2 other layers between us,) so speaking to him was quite easy. I also spoke to the VP in the US two layers above him at one point. And I mailed the CEO (another two layers, and got a reply.) They say they're an open communication company, so I took them at their word.

I got moved managers which was a good result for me, so my former line manager and I then both reported directly to someone on the same level as the real problem - my former line manager did thank me for having stirred things up enough to get this change. And more recently, the problem guy was made redundant, and it already clear in the two months since that this is making communication better all round.

I have had a lecture about how hierarchy is there for a reason, and I responded that I do use it when it's working for me. Probably it would have been better for my career to have left and gone elsewhere, but they pay well, and are a good employer in most ways. And I like most of our colleagues.

I am surprised some other posters are advising against reporting the manager. If vulnerable clients are being affected, you should whistle-blow. Poor working practices and toxic management thrive in cultures of fear. Whistle-blowing ensures anonymity.

@badspella

I am surprised some other posters are advising against reporting the manager. If vulnerable clients are being affected, you should whistle-blow. Poor working practices and toxic management thrive in cultures of fear. Whistle-blowing ensures anonymity.

Hello, someone said that I should read the whistleblowing policy, which I did. I hadn't even thought of it.

I think this is where it'll will inevitably leave. Would you suggest whistleblowing straight away, before the meeting, or after depending on how things go

I'd suggest that an audit trail of emails/confirming things that were discussed in any conversations and you making clear the implications of a failure to follow procedure is kept (and bcc a personal email in case you are suddenly 'unable' to access your work email).

Something else that might help depending upon your operating procedures, so not if it would put you in breach of rules yourself, is if you are able to include personally identifying details, such as a user account/reference number, as then if there were to be an investigation or a Subject Access Request, it's likely that the email would have to be disclosed rather than conveniently forgotten about.

You will have to be absolutely squeaky clean on everything, though - otherwise you could find yourself being picked up on for being 2 minutes late, not washing your mug up, not meeting a dress code that nobody has ever followed but it's never been updated, etc. Because it's easier to focus upon those than address a major issue and if the LM works out there's a problem, they will go for the jugular/look to make you out to be incompetent or maliciously making allegations to distract away from them doing 'normal line manager duties'.

I made a complaint. It didn't get dealt with the way I'd like (ie, get the sleazy, risky, unprofessional slimebag the fuck out of my face right now) but it did go towards getting rid of him - making the complaint meant they responded to any emailed requests, even veiled ones asking them to pop in for x (they knew these requests were clearly a pretext) and this meant that senior staff could witness issues personally, which took it out of being purely my word.

You'd be wise to contact your union as well. They're good at supporting whistleblowers before they make disclosures and can help ensure that you are not targeted in retaliation.

Download the policy. Download the Grievance Policy. Have your original contract and terms of employment, payslips, everything relating to your contract away from work.

Sometimes these things require a level of planning and forethought akin to how women fleeing domestic violence are advised to behave.

I did it when my line manager was incompetent and I'd repeatedly made it clear my workload was impossible and no action was taken.

Their manager asked what I needed and what action I wanted to be taken and it all happened almost immediately with regular check ins to make sure I was ok after that.

I absolutely would do this.
But you have to believe you are not being unreasonable and willing to stand your ground.
I once said no to something that was asked after a completetly incompetent and unprofessional series of meetings. My line manager went crying to their manager who was part of the incompetence and I was 'summoned' with a meeting request. I knew they would shout me down and I knew they wouldn't want anything documented. I declined and went to the manager above them. I am living with the fallout but the fallout is petty and unprofessinal. I am good at my job and they won't want to lose me. I am also beyond people telling me what to do for their own gain when it is not my job.

unprofessional even

I had a member of my team do this. It wasn't about me or my management style. But I wasn't in the office when they decided enough was enough and needed to vent. (My boss sat a row in front of me)

Personally I felt a little sad that they hadn't spoken to me beforehand, as I could have helped them (and did once I was aware) but I was glad they had the balls to go to the head honcho and ask for advice.

I think it really depends on the workplace environment. If it's cliquey and toxic it won't go well, if its open and friendly it will go well. If it was me, I'd do it- but i would explain to bosses boss that this conversation is in confidence before I begin.

I'd look to leave the meeting with a. A resolution or means to achieve a resolution or b. Leave knowing nothing will change, but I've said what I needed to say.

gather evidence (screenshots, printouts, whatever) of you being removed from email chains.
Make an objective list of how this is affecting the service you can provide.

Present your information to your manager. Preferably in writing and preferably get a reply in writing. (obvs you need evidence of you escalating things to them up to now as well)

Take all this to the meeting later this week and ask your manager's manger how to provide the service you are supposed to be providing.

Have an exit strategy.

I have gone above my boss's head when I had a micro-managing boss who was a nightmare. But her boss was a bit useless so it didn't get me anywhere!

sorry, forgot to say - i have done this in the past on more than one occasion. First time didn't end well, and it was only due to manager's incompetence that a different higher up found out they were shit and they were moved sideways and eventually managed out of the company. Too late for me as it had directly affected my evaluations and promotion for more than 2 years by then.

Next time, i had more success, was thanked for flagging it up and again, the manager was managed out fairly quickly. But you have to keep your nerve.

I did this but it was when I was leaving the organisation. I pulled together a statement and read it out to one of the Directors. They made noises around doing something about it but tbh I'm not convinced anything will change x

I've done this and it didn't go well. I knew it might not, which is why I left it until I was going to leave anyway... but I think it very rarely works. If things have broken down that much they're probably not salvageable.

You have evidence to back up your claims. The evidence will also exist in her emails. Good luck.

Never worked in any org that gave an actual fuck about employees, so it wouldn't make any difference.

Best of luck.
Some greaat advice above.

Clearly stating the consequences to the vulnerable clients is key.

Naming clients that have been impacted is key.

Is the organisation at risk of being publicly damaged if the lack of care to vulnerable clients is exposed.

Referring to specific cases with proof should be part of your meeting.

If you don't mention whistle blowing now, it will certainly put them on notice that you could do this, so have all your proof stored out of the office.

Thanks for all your responses.

I think I'm a bit stressed, just signed off work with a migraine.

I'll continue tomorrow with getting ready for the meeting with manager's manager later this week.
Going to treat myself to a lunch from the cafe downstairs and stay in bed for the rest of the day

If anything vital is on your work email get a copy of it now, either send it to your personal email, print it or take a photo of it. Just in case for any reason they lock you out of your work email. Don't trust anyone.

@billy1966

Best of luck. Some greaat advice above.

Clearly stating the consequences to the vulnerable clients is key.

Naming clients that have been impacted is key.

Is the organisation at risk of being publicly damaged if the lack of care to vulnerable clients is exposed.

Referring to specific cases with proof should be part of your meeting.

If you don't mention whistle blowing now, it will certainly put them on notice that you could do this, so have all your proof stored out of the office.

This is really good advice. You don't need to specifically mention whistleblowing now Op but you can clearly explain the to the manager at meeting your concerns about the possible consequences.

You mentioned risks to vulnerable individuals so it sounds like the concerns relate to the wider public rather than just you & individual employees? Just to be aware, under the Public Disclosures Act you are protected from any detriment if you are disclosing information which you reasonably believe tends to show at least one of the following (to summarise): commission of a criminal offence; failure to comply with legal obligations; actual/possible miscarriage of justice; endangerment of the health or safety of any individual; damage or likely damage to the environment; or deliberate concealment of any of these.

So if one or more of these apply, you would be protected from any negative consequences of disclosing your concerns, and if your line manager should 'make your life hell' s/he will probably be breaking the law. This would be a serious disciplinary offence in any well run company.

It is also worth checking your Whistleblowing Policy to see if it includes a statement (which it probably will) that the company will protect employees who make disclosures in good faith.

I worked for a large company. Worked in a team of 3 with 1 manager (A)and then another manager (B) above him. 1 of the team was a nightmare, barely did any work so eventually me and the other team member would find ourselves helping out to get deadlines achieved. She never clocked out for lunch, would swan off for a leg wax during core times and think we didn't know; go for lunch and come back swaying and stinking of booze anyway, me and the other team member got so pissed off, we made a complaint to (A) who was totally ineffective. so we complained to the next in line manager (B), HR and we got the Union involved. (B) manager equally as shit. meetings were had with HR/union and she was given verbal warning. She refused to speak to either of us after (fair enough; couldn't give a shit personally) and wouldn't involve herself in joint work with us so she got given another job to do; one that only 1 person was needed for. she still continued with her previous behaviour and so we complained again. we got dragged into a room with a manager and told 'this has already been dealt with so drop it'...despite us saying that it clearly hadn't!!!! Within a month, my colleague and I plus (A) were moved to a different floor of the office! She maintained her role and everything carried on as normal. Totally fucked me off. So it wasn't a happy ending in my experience at all. Managers were totally useless as was HR despite it being a big company with 1k+ employees.
But just because of other people's bad experiences, doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue what you need to. Just like bullies, they rely on people staying silent.