Why do people from poorer backgrounds have low aspirations

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I may not be explaining myself well here so please bear with me!

I've seen on here a few times where it's been mentioned that people from poorer backgrounds / deprived areas don't have higher aspirations. It seems they can do better but don't.

Just wondering why this is and what would help to change it.

Reason I'm asking is I'm from a por background and I still am. I don't want this for my kids but don't know how or what to do to change it.

think *you can do.

How old are your children?

The Sutton Trust runs summer schools for Year 12 and Year 13 (sixth formers) www.suttontrust.com/our-programmes/

Telling your children they can be anything is a start but we all only know what we know: young children won't understand what 'anything' is. They need real specific examples.

Read to them, or if they are older encourage them to read. If you can, make visiting the library a fun experience. Reading for pleasure will foster imagination and a sense that more is possible. When they are old enough reading will inform them about the jobs other people do, so that they can learn about the world which they don't see in their current environment.

In your own behaviour demonstrate to them that you value and enjoy reading, school and informal learning (museum visits for example). Don't make these activities chores that are done only for material success, because external outcomes are not a good incentive for learning. You can't teach them what you don't know but reading can.

I suppose it depends what you aspire to. My son is 25 left school with minimal GCSEs but found himself an apprenticeship. He is now earning over 40k pa plus bonuses and as much overtime as he wants. He is still living at home with me and has 25k saved for a house deposit already. No debts or student loans (unlike his friends that went to uni)

Growing up I didn’t have any role models in these aspirational jobs, nobody had in my family had been to university, teenage parents. My father has done really well for himself now, he comes from one of the most deprived boroughs in the country. It has the highest rates of inter generational unemployment in the country. It also has NO sixth form colleges in the entire borough. He got a trade, specialised and worked hard, by the time I was in my mid twenties he’d become a millionaire but wasn’t when I was growing up.

I got top grades at school but did an apprenticeship for less than minimum wage because my parents had really expressed that you only did a degree if you had a specific job you wanted to do. I did go to uni after my apprenticeship but got into thousands of pounds of debt, I had no savings and my loan didn’t cover accommodation.

My husband comparatively went to private school, his parents paid for two degrees, he did a one year unpaid internship abroad living in a penthouse apartment funded by his parents and then got a great job after.

There are huge barriers for people, even working as hard as I could I’d have never been able to do all the things my husband has done.

I come from a v WC family - my parents and one of my step parents were all supermarket workers in varying degrees. That used to be more lucrative than it is now, but within reason obviously. My mum would have been happy if I’d stayed working in retail and moved into a flat down the road and saw her every second day. That was all she aspired for me, but at the same time she definitely encouraged me to get into the local grammar. However when I was there she didn’t take that much interest, I often wonder if she was intimidated by it/the work I was doing? My dad was NRP, he was very encouraging. But that wasn’t quite enough really as it was from a distance and I could have done a lot better than I did.

I managed to go to uni when it was a lot more accessible (started in 2002 so fees were low and my parents income meant I got a good loan, but I had to work throughout) and picked a degree that would put me into a lucrative sector and I did ok for myself. Now v MC with child at local independent school and mortgage paid off. A lot of that was due to living in a town that is quite affordable compared to the big city we live next to, and also because I grew up knowing there were money worries (one parent went bankrupt at one point and they are still a big source of worry for me) and I just couldn’t face that happening to me/DC. It helps that I’m bright and pick things up very quickly and mostly quite confident.

But I feel so privileged and a lot of it was to do with the school, 90-95% of kids finishing yr13 would go on to uni at that point. And the school was pure luck that we were in catchment.

I can see how it would be so easy to just follow the footsteps of parents/other family if that’s all you know and if school also doesn’t have great expectations.

There was a lack of aspiration on the part of our teachers too. Looking back, I'm disappointed that their expectations for us were so low, especially given that they had been to university themselves. I think they thought that if we managed to avoid the pitfalls of drugs, crime, a teenage pregnancy or unemployment, we'd be doing well for ourselves

Our teachers openly stated that their expectations for us were that we'd be "Thieves and whores" (former male, latter female). Now, I'm sure that they thought they were realistic as a lot of the families did have their men in prison (released intermittently and then back soon thereafter) and there was a lot of sex work around us.

It very much coloured their attitude to us and I'm sure that it didn't occur to them to research any opportunities that might have helped us.

My dh was from a poor background ( I was too ) but his parents encouraged him to work hard at school and to join an apprenticeship scheme which led to working his way up. Many of his colleagues were the same too , out of school with O levels and then more training whilst learning on the job and earning enough to buy a car. Some of them he knew became managers but had quite humble backgrounds and didn't go to university. They had to study for a degree later on in life , but paid for by the employer.
My dh did well , but he wouldn't have these same opportunities these days or you would need a degree to work there at the level he joined at 16. The apprenticeship schemes were scaled back an awful lot.
He has a work pension now too , something most people won't have at his age either ( or not as good)
Things haven't changed for the better with regards to work.

I come from a working class family, but passed the 11+ and the expectation at grammar school, was that everyone would go on to higher education. Most did. My cousin went to university and I was the second person in the larger family to go there.

As a teacher, it took me a while to get my head around the fact that many of the students I taught had little or no expectation of securing a job of any description. Few adults in the families were in paid employment and it really was the case that a cup of tea and the TV was what they expected and wanted. Many simply saw no need or value in working at school to get a job, because they could live quite comfortably without.

The idea that there was anything other than the insular life they lived, was impossible to comprehend.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

IMO sometimes parents don’t encourage their children because they think they’ll ‘get above themselves’ - end up looking down on their parents.

I knew someone like this, who actively discouraged her perfectly capable ds from going to university. It was particularly odd because her dh was degree-educated and in a professional job. She was evidently always all too conscious of her lack of education, but you’d have thought that would make her more determined that her dcs would not be the same.

I seem to remember a Ronnie Corbett sketch from the sixties (TW3 or the Frost Report?) where the salt-of-the-Earth cab driver and his wife were talking about their daughter who had entered the middle class. The couple spoke painfully of their daughter no longer having anything to do with them - and how proud they were of her doing so. If you love something, set it free, there is little more satisfying than having it return of its own free will.

Adding to the discussion

• I'm a Governor at a secondary school with a high number of pupil Premium kids.

PP is used to track performance at every level from attendance, grades, to participation and leadership roles. The school is consistently implementing strategies to narrow the gap between pp and non pp achievements.

If I was a parent, I'd be looking to schools who actively intervene to try and improve the outcomes for kids.

Upper middles classes like to perpetuate the myth that working class children aren't as ambitious as their children so they don't feel bad about the structural inequality they are complicit in.

This, absolutely.

Undoubtedly, there is a big factor in many cases of lack of support or aspiration and a limited world view - but this is by far the only reason. Plenty of rich people have very limited achievements, but because they have the family money to fall back on, they're glamorised and lauded as 'socialites' or 'debutantes' or 'personalities', even though they're only really famous for being famous.

There's a young man who pops up on TV a lot who is, as far as I can see, only famous because he's the heir to a very big biscuit company. He doesn't seem ever to have any particular skills or interest to offer other than being a celebrity. When it comes to aspirations, perseverance and a determination to make something worthwhile of his life, what's the real difference between him and somebody who works packing boxes in one of his family's biscuit factories - apart from one has millions at his disposal and the other is on NMW constantly struggling to keep their head above water?

Dismissing those from poorer backgrounds who don't end up making a big, lucrative career for themselves as being supposedly because they don't know that well-paying jobs exist is like suggesting that people must use foodbanks because they've never heard of supermarkets. You could go even further and say that starving children in desperately impoverished countries are only in that position because they're too dull to understand the benefits of eating regularly.

We all know that it's expensive to be poor, in so many ways. It's true that you can often 'speculate to accumulate' - but if you don't have the means to speculate in the first place, how can you ever get a foothold?

The last few governments have shown their clear desire to stamp on the faces of the ambitious poor and crush social mobility (well, upwards, anyway) with the introduction and continuation of university tuition fees. As a PP said, £30K+ of debt hanging over you is nothing to the wealthy (if they even bother to take out the loans in the first place), but it's an unfathomable rubicon to those from underprivileged backgrounds, however brilliantly academic they may be.

I know MN has a reputation for being solidly MC, but this has to be one of the most avowedly MC threads I've ever read on here.

I don't think it's always about aspirations or seeing it around you - loads of poor kids aspire to be rich football players or pop stars when they don't know any of either

They may not know them personally, but those footballers and pop stars are what they see in the media & hear being discussed as success stories. They aren't hearing about doctors, barristers, actuaries or engineers unless those people are in their circle.
I'm from a WC background and don't know anyone in those professions now, let alone as a child/teenager.

I think most people end up, socially, not that far from where they started

I went to university, so would feel fairly confident supporting my children to do that. I'd be less confident supporting them to live overseas or train to be a bricklayer, as I haven't done this myself

University is not the be all and end all. It's certainly not the ringing endorsement it may have been years ago. Some of the courses are risible and bear no relation to the jobs or careers that graduates ultimately pursue and some graduates have no more real intelligence or street smarts than the average 'man in the street' who didn't go to uni.
Meanwhile, away from campus, the non-uni educated individual is often working, saving, getting promoted and on the housing ladder way before his uni educated classmates.

@notanothertakeaway Have you tried to get hold of a decent bricklayer?? They are £££ and are like hens teeth !!

I think attitudes to the idea of moving away from where you grew up are really important.

I went to a selective grammar school, most of the parents were middle class professionals.

It was totally expected that their children would go away to university and afterwards move to where the (high paying) jobs were and not come back.
My school friends are spread all over the world now (though most are in London). None of them have returned to where we grew up (which is a lovely place, incidentally, they don't need to escape from it), and crucially nobody in their family or wider circle would ever think that they should. It wouldn't enter their heads.
And anyway, their partners aren't from the same place. They don't have family support near, but that's normal.

Often people from more deprived backgrounds have a stronger loyalty/affinity to the place they grew up. Moving away is not viewed as the norm.
Parents might be surprised, hurt, taken aback. Family support locally is the absolute norm. They're less likely to move for a job, more likely to want to stay put and find a job locally.

@fellrunner85
“ For example - my A level grades might, in theory, have got me into Oxbridge. But back then I had no idea how to apply, didn't know how to navigate the college application system (no internet then to research it on either!), couldn't afford the train tickets to go there for open days, didn't know how to do a personal statement that would've helped an application - etc etc. So I didn't apply and went to a local university instead. I know it's a bit different now, but back then, Oxford or Cambridge may as well have been the moon to people who grew up where I did. ”

If you could have come on here at the time maybe others could have given you good advice about what to do.

OP, keep asking.

For me ( grew up in 80's) the problems were.
Low expectations from teachers ( this will have changed I think now)
Fear of being different. I was not social teenager so wasn't too bothered about this but I saw others who wanted to fit in and not stand out as being different.
Lack of knowledge of different careers. I went into teaching which was ok but there are other careers I may have enjoyed more.
Lack of home facilities. Shared bedroom with younger siblings made studying difficult.
I found the social side of university difficult as I felt different and some people made comments about my differences eg accent, parents jobs, clothes etc. This wasn't a posh university either. Hopefully 30 years later that has changed.

I think parents have just a big an impact on aspirations as schools.
DBro and I came from a disadvantaged background but both went to university, our parents were very supportive and never made us feel like it wasn't "for us".

It took me a while to settle into a career though, as like pp I just didn't know what jobs were "out there".
My DC will be luckier in that respect as they see adults around them (eg, us/our friends/class mates parents) in a variety of professional jobs.

People from poorer backgrounds are more deprived in terms of the range of opportunities that are presented to them. They are not exposed to culturally/academically stimulating experiences; their minds are therefore closed down rather than opened to all the possibilities life has to offer.

And interestingly, I don’t think it’s always money that plays the important factor here. My parents were very poor but they always took us out on day trips - to see a different town, to look round a Cathedral City, to museums, to walks out in the countryside. Our eyes were opened to places, to people, to life. It completely depends upon the mindset, the drive, the curiosity of the parents to some degree.

I know people who come from middle-class backgrounds, who have a very good education & wealth behind them, and they’ve got nothing to show for it. In fact, completely the opposite; they’re lazy, no drive, casual interests in things that to me, seem like a complete waste of time. Some of them are going nowhere, fast.

The other point I think it’s worth raising here is that everyone’s definition of “success” is vastly different. Some individuals with what most would call high-flying professional careers - Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants - are very successful in these terms but may not meet someone else’s definition of a successful person. Someone who has a lot of money could be called successful in a materialistic sense but again, that may not be another’s definition of true success, or even theirs!!

I also agree that 'success' is a very subjective thing.

Some people value constantly crossing continents and chasing ever better-paying and more prestigious careers. Others value proximity to and more time with their families as far more important in life.

Even on MN, SAHMs are frequently pitied as a victim of their circumstances and looked down on as lacking ambition or not 'understanding' the value of paid work. It never seems to occur to a lot of people that, if their family circumstances can allow for it (even if that means living modestly), many women (and some men) actually WANT to be at home with their own children and are equally horrified by the idea of working full-time and paying a stranger to be with their young children all day out of choice, even if you end up no better off financially.

I don't think see why one valid choice is automatically and unequivocally 'success' whilst the other is 'sad and lazy lack of ambition'.

I come from a low income council estate.

1. I simply wasn't aware of most well paying professional jobs. Didn't know they existed.
2. It simply never occurred to me that a high paying, professional job was an option. I didn't think ' that's not for the likes of me'. Its more that the thought, 'that could be for me', did not occur to me.'
3. School did not do anything to expand our horizons. They never made us aware of the different types of well paid jobs available, let alone encourage us to think we could achieve them, or achieve anything really. At our 'careers' sessions they bought in someone from a local bank to tell us about becoming a bank clerk at £100 a week. I think our teachers considered this a good 'aspirational' job for kids like us. Most of my school mates went on to work in shops/ factory lines.
4. My parents had no career ambitions for me and had no knowledge of experience to give me any advice or encouragement.

“Ohmamma30

For me it’s a confidence thing. I grew up in an abusive household. Both my parents were bullies. I had a son at 17, went back to college and gained qualifications. When I mentioned going to university, my dad told me I wasn’t clever enough.
I did later go to university and gained a first. In between this though, I then got embroiled in an abusive relationship, and whatever confidence I had has now gone. I know I am an intelligent person, I can carry myself well. Due to experiences and lack of support however, I don’t feel I have the mental capacity to take strive anymore.
I feel your environment as a child plays a huge part in how you respond to experiences you have later in life, and how we respond to them as adults.“

I think an abusive family does sap energy and confidence.

@FindingMeno

I have no idea how to find out what jobs there are that pay well, other than the obvious stuff like surgeon or pilot. How do you get to know this stuff?

Most people don't know. This is why we need a properly resourced, professionally qualified careers service. Unfortunately we've had successive governments, who are made up of people with an abundance of cultural, social and economic capital, systematically underfund and undermine the careers guidance sector. They don't seem to understand that not everyone has the same opportunities they had so might need additional support.

Just take them to things (museums, galleries, libraries), try to ensure they read widely, to glimpse different types of lives, and talk to them about how education can help people make big financial leaps. If you model the notion that anything is possible - and maybe talk to them about how & why you think you missed out on chances - they’ll have some perspective on how it works.

If you can do all that, that’s a lot in itself. The fact that you’re even thinking about it gives you the nose already.