Why do people from poorer backgrounds have low aspirations

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I may not be explaining myself well here so please bear with me!

I've seen on here a few times where it's been mentioned that people from poorer backgrounds / deprived areas don't have higher aspirations. It seems they can do better but don't.

Just wondering why this is and what would help to change it.

Reason I'm asking is I'm from a por background and I still am. I don't want this for my kids but don't know how or what to do to change it.

Plus who honestly, genuinely keeps a whole bookcase of books that they read over and over?
I do 🤷🏼‍♀️

Agree about the delayed gratification. I’m from immigrant family and know people who have worked abroad, lived apart from families for years, saved money even on low salary. Not everyone is willing to make those sacrifices and it can cause family break up too. But it can also help the next generation. There is luck in there, but one way of mitigating it is helping out relatives when you can.

We weren't expected to do anything outside the norm. There was no encouragement and the idea of 'getting above your station' was frowned on. My parents would have been proud of me if I'd become very successful but it simply wasn't what people like us did.

Yeah, I do too. Although I have had a cull.
My very wc parents always had books in the house too. My favourite was the massive world Atlas. Just not the same online.

I do too - but it doesn’t mean I’m more educated or intelligent than people who have all their books on a Kindle, just that I bought most of my books years ago before Kindles existed.

Owning books is also a luxury beyond some poorer people not simply because of their cost in the first place but because e.g. if you live in overcrowded housing you aren’t going to want to reduce space further by cramming it with books; and if you’ve experienced housing instability, it simply isn’t feasible or practical to be carrying around boxes of old books with you between various temporary accommodations. That I’ve never had to worry about where I’m going to keep my books or how I’m going to transport them from one side of London to another is a sign mainly of privilege, not intelligence.

@SpinsForGin

Plus who honestly, genuinely keeps a whole bookcase of books that they read over and over? I do 🤷🏼‍♀️

Me too. What else would you do with books?

You’d think from that comment that people never rewatch a film or play a video game twice.

Plus who honestly, genuinely keeps a whole bookcase of books that they read over and over?

My DP grew up under a totalitarian regime were books were censored if not burned and their authors killed.
As soon as he started working (1947 at the age of 13) he bought books + a book that is not worth to be read twice is not worth to be read once.

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@ComtesseDeSpair
“ MNers are very fond of displaying physical books so as everyone can see an apparent marker of them being educated and middle class”
Do you really think that they have books so people can see them as being educated, rather than because some people like books a lot?[/quote]
Lack of a bookcase or the presence of one has no real link with love of books.

I grew up with one because nearly everyone in the city had one. I've rarely seen my parents read despite them ordering fancy hard cover sets and what not from catalogues, they looked very pretty indeed. I was the only one that actually read nearly every single book in the house.

We don't have a bookcase as there is no space and I read too much and too fast, so all my books are on the kindle app. OH also reads though not as much but it's on a device too. DD's books are stored tidily in a cupboard under her mid sleeper so no one would see them . She's not a massive reader but we keep trying different types of books and authors and various formats. Once books are done with , we donate or sell them (because..space) and have only kept a few that she's really attached to.

As soon as he started working (1947 at the age of 13) he bought books + a book that is not worth to be read twice is not worth to be read once.

I love this!

@IdontWanna
“Lack of a bookcase or the presence of one has no real link with love of books.”

The point I was making was that the presence of books does not mean people have them merely for show to make themselves appear educated.

And, some people collect books as objects so passionately it is almost like a mental illness.

Yes. It’s called a Kindle. Plus who honestly, genuinely keeps a whole bookcase of books that they read over and over?
Me. And probably books I might never read. Two bookcases in fact and about 1 million on my kindle 😳

I did my degree with the Open University whilst working full time it was great unfortunately their fees are now a lot more expensive

Family, education, environment, money.

I think a lot has to do with how you are as an individual too, if you're determined enough to pursue something you will do it, but you definitely have to work harder.

Both DH and I come from single parent backgrounds, council estate life.

We elevated ourselves out of it and now see in our children the difference between us and them.

Both of us were blind to the jobs available, and yet worked hard and got to where we are now. Which for our backgrounds and ages is a really good position. We had no safety net (both leaving home at 16) in terms of emotional or financial support. We dragged ourselves up, a mix of damn hard work , luck and personality.

Our children are exposed constantly to new and different things. They see travel, nice cars, disposable cash as "standard" so know that they need to work for that. We've done extra curricular clubs, thrown money at tech and stuff to get them through the pandemic unscathed. We give them opportunities. Talk all the time and preach "read, read and read some more".

For example, we just got back from a package week on holiday. Very big standard, nice bit of winter sun. When I mentioned to a couple of friends, who don't travel, and my mom, that we'd left the resort and wandered into the local housing to find a shop, they were absolutely appalled at how "dangerous" it was.

It wasn't. Why would it be?

It's mentality. So much mentality.

It is much harder being poor than not being poor that much is clear. Generational poverty gets passed on as does generational wealth and education is the great equalizer to break the poverty cycle, which is why I went into teaching.

The poster who said that being poor seems to be a permanent delay of gratification I am not sure as delaying gratification is an intentional act so you choose to give up pleasure today for pleasure way ahead in the future. When you are poor you are more likely to grab pleasure when it comes your way. That is why I see students I know are living with little still have smart phones and often not the cheapest trainers. Their parent has made sure their child gets that highly desirable item in spite of their poverty one way or another because they don't want their child to ' go without' the thing they are desperate to have. Now those kida may never have been on a plane or been to an art gallery because the family just prioritize different things and just find a way for these 'luxuries' that enable kids to fit in with their peers who are able to get the smart phone and the trainers without making any sacrifices.

I teach mainly students who face varying levels of poverty and aside from my students who are homeless or illegal immigrants, I would say 90 % have a smart phone and decent trainers in spite of their lack of wealth. It is the middle class kid that does not have a cell phone and the trainers often- parents feel no need to make their child fit in and are secure in their status on that front so do not have the same urge to ensure their child is not the odd one out. I have a food bank in my room and kids with the smartphones are getting items-I know how hard their lives are and I get why that smartphone is so important and i am glad their parents found a way to get it for them but it does mean they are playing games all lunch rather than in the library reading-which is mainly the white more wealthy kids who end up reading to occupy themselves, and so the cycle continues. It is very hard to get out of poverty but it is possible, it is hard and many can't even face that marathon and I certainly do not judge them for that. I want every child I deal with to have the best chance at getting a good education because I know it is their best possible chance out of the life circumstances they have been born into. It is what has got both my husband and I the good lives that we now enjoy and hope to have replicated by our children one day.

Such a stereotypical thought. Some of the most aspirational people I know are those who have nothing and so try twice as hard to turn their lives around.

I think the trouble sometimes comes when parents have had low expectations and by the time their children have grown up enough to expect more they have already gotten themselves into life defining situations I.e. early pregnancy.

Other times those from poorer backgrounds do have higher expectations but due to their life circumstances no matter how hard they try they just never really get anywhere. Hard work and achievement doesn't always equal success. Sometimes it is more who you know and where you are seen to fit in.

Lastly, there are an awful lot of people from more well off backgrounds who don't have particularly high expectations of themselves because they have wealth to fall back on so it isn't just something that impacts poorer people.

On the books point I have books which I genuinely to read again. If I think I will never read one again I tend not to keep it. I also have some of my parents' books from the 1940s onwards too and I only took those I will and do read. However I have no problems with people with no space for a bookcase or who only read electronic things although that must make things a bit difficult in the recent power cuts for some....
(I also have 2 shelves of the books I wrote too in order of publication but that is a totally separate thing).

Heart is right that hard work etc is not the only way to get on. You need to work smart as well as hard in plenty of the higher paid jobs which might involve changing your accept, voice lessons, changing clothes, taking up hobbies where you can build up client relationships and win work.

@Tigersonvaseline

To do that all teachers and And ta must get basic training in Sen and what to spot. then properly trained senco needs to have stragies at hand on how to assist those DC.

Then be able too support Parents work as a team...on getting that child education!

How many iltereate people end up in prison!!

I met Lord John Bird who created the Big Issue magazine for the homeless at an event organised by The Guardian. He told a gobsmacked room full of the great and the good that more people should be sent to prison. Why? Because his dissolute parents didn't give a damn about him and his siblings and without prison, he would never have learned to read and write. Who knows, as an ex-con, he may be one of the more honest members of the House of Lords.

@Xenia voice lessons? You mean working-class kids getting rid of their accents so they can pretend to cone from a middle-class background?

I'm from a very poor background but was lucky enough to just scrape through university before full maintenance grants were removed. So much of what people have already said resonates; I'm now fairly well educated and not afraid of news sources like the Guardian but when I was growing up my dad kept telling me it was much too highbrow for the likes of us. And ironically he was the parent who desperately wanted me to get an education! There is no way I'd have been able to go to university now - 27k of debt minimum just for your tuition? That's way more than many people earn in a year in the background I'm from - and it's not that they don't work hard, despite what the overly entitled and pampered boris and jrm class might think and the nonsense peddled by the Mail and the like (generally staffed by graduates from tuat class, when they're not buying in cheap stories from overseas press agency mills). Even the OU would have been out of my reach. I have several friends who obtained their degrees while working, but they had to wait until universities finally saw sense about part time degrees (very common in Germany even when I was in my 20s).

When I went to university I felt as if my poor background really showed - I'd never been abroad, let alone skiing or to America; and unfortunately some of the posher "gels" in the hall of residence really made me feel that, including the ones who were supposed to be the welcome committee on my first day - I arrived late and not in a car, so evidently not well off, and they were horrible to me. The warden had gone back to their house in the grounds by then and evidently these delightful madams didn't need to show how lovely they were any more...so many other small examples, not knowing about food, or what cutlery to use at our formal meals, or about artists or celebrities of the day, or anything about ponies or lacrosse, or what the brand of scarf you wore told the world about your social class (this was long before designer outlets and ebay!) I had made the mistake of choosing a very green welly university...so called as lots of the students were from very posh backgrounds where Hunter wellies and Barbour jackets were the order of the day.

And it definitely held me back - I didn't have the confidence to join the drama group or the student newspaper. I didn't even think I was allowed to use the computing centre until I realised it was for everyone in my final year. And when I got into difficulties in my 3rd year it didn't even occur to me I could go and ask for help from my tutors or the careers service.

It wasn't until I'd worked and mixed with people from outside the UK, especially Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealand (it was in an ESL setting) that the chips on my shoulders started receding, they didn't give a monkey's how many ponies you had, they really were more interested in personal merit and my ability to get on with others.

Now, years later when I've travelled and worked overseas and met people from all over who don't know my background and if they did wouldn't care, I look back and laugh at some of it. But that sense of inferiority still lingers quietly on, and I'm determined I'll help my younger sister's kids have that background knowledge they need to apply to higher education and thrive if it's the right option for them, or to be successful in other ways if not. And I'll also make sure they have all the information they need about grants and scholarships and essay prizes and positive discrimination due to postcode they might need to help them get on. It's not a coincidence that these grants often go to middle class kids and up - there's a lot of sharp parental elbows out there in my experience!

There are some totally free or very low cost tuition degree courses out there in parts of Europe, especially Scandinavia, and taught in English too, but those opportunities are no longer open now we're a 3rd country and not part of the EU...

Most people who move in what used to be called the middle class and up will never know that sense of inferiority, even if they don't consciously understand their level of privilege. I remember reading something a while back that pointed out that if Prince William was going to marry a commoner it would always have been a Kate Middleton type - an ordinary girl from the comp would have been far too bolshy and never have mixed in those circles anyway. Whereas she went to the right school, was intelligent but not TOO intelligent, well groomed and quietly confident, and also sufficiently sporty to be very acceptable in that circle of society.

There's a student from Bristol University who is from an ordinary working class background and who has founded a movement focusing on ex comprehensive students at university, sounds as if her experience of academia has been pretty similar to how I experienced it.

In terms of advice on how you can help your kids, reading widely including newspapers and not being put off by long words or political bias (read the Guardian AND the Daily Mail, the Spectator AND the New Statesman as as that gives a pretty broad spectrum, plus magazines- the local library should have an app called Libby or similar which us free and has magazines on all kinds of topics, and these days there are fantastic documentaries on YouTube and other places; and also building their confidence whether that's via sports or cadets or drama or public speaking of some kind. Places where they can mix with as broad a spectrum of people as possible will be a good start - my sister's kids went to scouts for a few years and it definitely shows in their confidence even now that they learned how to mix well (along with potentially useful post apocalyptic skills like how to skin a rabbit and build a fire :))

Despite the lip service about levelling up, social mobility in the UK is currently at an all time low and it's an absolute disgrace, but that doesn't mean your kids are any less capable or deserving of the chance to progress.

Sorry this is such a long post but I have felt so strongly about this my whole life and you only really understand it if you've been there.

All the very best to your kids and you, you sound like a super, lovely parent.

Of course some WC kids are taken to the library and grow up using it regularly. Both DH and I did, and the love of learning is a big factor in going on to university (both first in family to go) and then having careers. It's still our default now - moving to a new town last year we'd registered at the library within a couple of days because, to us, it's the obvious thing to do regularly with your kid. But that's because we grew up like that.

But they aren't accessible to all, especially now so many have closed or have restricted opening hours. The school with the lack of a school library was in a village visited by a mobile library for two hours once a fortnight. So, you had to remember which week it was, and whether that changed if there was a bank hol etc. And it wasn't that big, so limited choice. Plus the two hours were during the working day so no chance if you were working long days.

Not everyone can afford a Kindle. And sitting at home on a Kindle is nice for an adult reading but misses out on all the 'extras' for kids - the Rhymetime that helps kids with early literacy, the summer reading challenges, the encounter with other parents when you're struggling, the help from staff to find another book your kid likes. In the area I left the children's centres had all closed and HVs were almost non-existent so the only way to get the BookStart pack with the free books for your kid was via the library.

It is true that libraries are keeping very limited opening times.

Yes, I learned a lot from Newcastle libraries as did my parents. It can also be a place to do work in silence. Even my twins in periods of lockdown from university when sent home when libraries opened again would go to our local public library (we still have them in this bit of outer London). Caitlin Moran has written about how much she got out of her local library. It is also a place to go which is warm and much of what I have learned when I was a teenager was not just from school but from books from the library.

The school library at my secondary school was terrible in terms of book stock (think 1950s novels where the heroine's main aim is to marry a doctor!), but lovely as a safe place to go away from certain kids outside!

It isn’t just having the tools though, it’s knowing how to access them.

If your parents don’t read, they don’t “get” reading, they don’t see the point in the library. Many people see reading as a chore, so why would they see it as a fun activity?

If your parents were never taken to museums, they don’t know the value of these places, so why would they take children there?

If they have never been taught how to use computers, or again don’t have basic reading comprehension, likely they won’t have a computer, or their idea of a computer might be a games console.

If you grow up in that environment you don’t know what is out there to go looking for it. The adults around you all on benefits, even if you wanted a career how do you even get started? Where do you look for jobs, what kind of job do you want, can you even fill in an application correctly, and if so do you realise what employers are looking for?

Jobs in my town you went and got physically. You’d knock on the door of the local pub, your mates mum would let you know they needed someone in spar…

Yes we have schools, libraries, museums, the internet, and the information is out there. But you need someone to tell you it’s out there before you know it’s there to look for, iyswim. Especially as a child.

You only need to read the local facebook pages to realise many people don’t have enough skills to access basic information. There’s a lot that are almost illiterate, whether through dyslexia or lack of education or whatever, the end result is the same- these are the parents who won’t be able to help their children gain knowledge.