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Why do people from poorer backgrounds have low aspirations

851 replies

suggestedlogin · 20/02/2022 11:57

I may not be explaining myself well here so please bear with me!

I've seen on here a few times where it's been mentioned that people from poorer backgrounds / deprived areas don't have higher aspirations. It seems they can do better but don't.

Just wondering why this is and what would help to change it.

Reason I'm asking is I'm from a por background and I still am. I don't want this for my kids but don't know how or what to do to change it.

OP posts:
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5
jacks11 · 20/02/2022 18:53

I think it’s complex.

I think parental attitudes to education and employment/careers, as well as parental aspiration for their children has a big impact on children and their educational outcomes. Some children are born with drive and ambition, and will succeed whatever their parents attitude or whatever peer pressure the come up against. Other children need encouragement and to be given confidence that they can succeed should aspire to a career outside the norm for their family/peer group- without it, they won’t have the confidence to step out of the “comfort zone”.

Many children, especially teens, like to conform to the norms for their peer group. If you have a peer group who expect to have to do well, expect to go in to higher education and so on, then you are more likely to have those expectations too. If everyone you know is mainly at school because they have to be, expect to leave and get a local job in whatever is available, then it’s more likely that that will be what you will be aiming at too. Not inevitable, but more likely.

My father came from a very low income area- his parents grafted in hard, physical jobs their entire lives and scraped by for the most part- they had little time to devote to helping him with his school work (if they had even known how- both left school at 14) or thinking about a career. A career was something outside their experience and although they obviously aware that some people did this (they knew about Dr’s, solicitors, teachers etc), it wasn’t something they would even have thought to encourage as he was expected to leave school and get a job. Like they had done and just as everyone else they knew had done.

There was also no way they could have afforded to send him to university, even with the grant system. Added to that, when he met my mum and was encouraged (and funded) by her to go to night school and then university, there were lots of comments about “getting above himself” and “why was he wasting time, bothering with all that”. He was told he was “going soft” or “become a snob” or “you’ll be thinking you’re better than us soon”- and many other jokes/digs/criticisms. That might have been enough to discourage some people from starting or continuing, especially a teenager (my dad wasn’t, he was 20), as they often do almost anything to conform to the social norms of their peers.

Times have changed, in many ways, but there are still parents don’t encourage their children because it doesn’t occur to them that they can or should, because they don’t know how to help as they have no experience of further or higher education, or how to go about starting a career. They might ‘encourage” their children (which has value, of course) but without anything to back up that encouragement it’s a bit vague.

For some, sadly, they actively do not want their child to do these things- they don’t view education as valuable/think it’s a waste of time or don’t want their children to leave them behind (maybe they fear losing touch/having less in common with their children) or become “one of them”/“a snob” etc. My friend works in a school in a very deprived area and she comes across those attitudes more often than I’d thought.

Add in that if you don’t know certain career or profession exists how can you aspire to it? My DC know people who have wide and varied careers because of the careers of relatives, our friends, their friends parents, even friends of grandparents and so on. For instance- they personally know adults who work in: farming & agriculture; medical and a number of associated professions; vets: engineers (several different fields); solicitors/lawyers specialising in a variety of areas; people who work in banking and investing/acquisitions; rural estate management; owners of small/medium businesses; senior management; CEO of a major international firm; academics in the sciences, language and social sciences; forensic archeologist; climate/ glacial geologists; senior civil service; several who work in bodies like the UN; a master saddler; master farrier; theatre production; musician in a national orchestra. If you are exposed to these different possibilities- and the knowledge that there are many more possibilities out there- you are more likely to find your niche/something which sparks an interest or fires the imagination.

Mucky1 · 20/02/2022 18:54

Posted to soon 😳 we obviously do reading and homework we play with the children and do days out and have fun but I do feel of I were more affluent and I was able to do a less physical job I'd have more stamina and spoons left do give them more opportunities.
We have bought our house but it's on a council estate and we are surrounded by families like ourselves it's not that we don't have ambition but the la k of cash and being just ground down by life are hampering our ambition

TheHateIsNotGood · 20/02/2022 18:56

It really is a 'generalisation' with some truth and a lot of 'learned theory' applied in a blanket fashion to those on lower incomes (previosly known as the working class). And is rather outdated in the post-industrial UK.

Where there is mass and pockets of deprivation this is distinctly linked to lack of employment opportunities and therefore educational opportunity and down the spiral we go.

Yet, real people live in these places; if the majority encouraged their dc with "aspirations" how would these be manifested? With the local well-paid jobs that don't exist, would they all have to leave their area, creating a depopulated wasteland, or would they face a lifetime of disappointment bacause at one time they had 'aspirations'?

Only by creating well-paid employment opportunities in economically deprived areas will this idea of low income=low income become finally debunked.

TheHateIsNotGood · 20/02/2022 18:57

low income=low aspiration

Comefromaway · 20/02/2022 18:59

I agree with a lot of what has been said.

I come from a working class family. My dad left school aged 14 to become an apprentice plumber/welder, my mum despite being from a large, working class family was encouraged to stay on for A levels but in very traditional girls subjects eg Commercial Maths. She became a secretary then ran a corner shop.

Growing up I knew no one who had been to university except a few teachers at secondary school. (at primary most had been to teacher training college but not proper Uni). I do remember telling a teacher I was going to be a secretary when I grew up. She said but you should go to university, at least aim to be something like a bilingual secretary. I then decided I was going to be a teacher.

I then became in the odd situation of my parents earning quite a lot of money (compared to those around us) as my dad left his job to start a plumbing business and he was really successful. Becoming a teacher seemed ok and aspirational to them. I left my dreadful secondary school where less than 30% got 5 A-C grade GCSEs for the local 6th form college. My tutor wanted me to apply to Royal Holloway university but my parents said I wasn’t allowed to apply to London so I applied to unsuitable universities closer to home and was either rejected or didn’t make the grades. I ended up going to one of the lowest ranked universities in England. My parents had no idea about university rankings, they just saw a cheap city close to home.

I ended up working for my dad’s plumbing company. We are now very well off as it became even more successful which to him perpetuates the fact that going to university is a waste of time.

feb21 · 20/02/2022 18:59

maybe an apprenticeship would be a way your nephew could go

It would be brilliant, but he hasn't managed to find one. Not having Maths and English GCSE holds him back when other candidates do.

I suspect there's a smaller number of apprenticeships on offer where he lives. The construction trade, for example, is thriving and well paid in our local area but it's a different kettle of fish in his town, there just isn't the same demand from a low-income demographic.

He's a nice lad and I feel badly for him when finding a job seems almost impossible. He's happy to work for minimum wage so it's not him being difficult.

worriedatthemoment · 20/02/2022 19:00

@SpinsForGin so what your saying is in one breath your parents job and education is no.1 prediction
Is that not a societal issue then
Straight away people are fighting stereotypes
Oh your mum doesn't work or works at tesco so that child won't achieve as much , why I hate research that does zero to address the issue
Most of the people i know in lower entry jobs absolutely tell their children to try and aim for a better job
I was sent a letter when my ds at shook towards end of year 11 offering me to apply for free revision books due to living in a deprived postcode , i didn't take them because we had actually bought them in year 9/10 when they needed them not a few weeks before exams , some research prob said that would tick a box

worriedatthemoment · 20/02/2022 19:03

@Comefromaway I think uni is right for some and not others and its more that for some people in life you are only successful if you go when thats not the only way
I think higher education or paid apprenticeships until 19/20 would be good aa it would give all kids a chance to find something

Monopolyiscrap · 20/02/2022 19:06

@Cheekypeach

It isn’t part of their worldview.

I’m certainly not from a posh background myself, I’m not sure where I would fit class-wise (neither parent went to university, pretty skint growing up, but lived in an okay-ish area and went to an ok school).

But I lived with my ex’s family for quite a while who were very very much on the breadline. It opened my eyes completely. Careers aren’t mentioned - it’s like a middle class teen talking about becoming the head of the Bank of England, or an astronaut. You just don’t - you set what are in your mind achievable goals. For middle class kids, that’s being an accountant or a pharmacist etc. But those jobs are just as out of reach as being an astronaut to teens from deprived areas.

Same reasons - there will be better/cleverer candidates, it’s a pipe dream, I wouldn’t know how to go about it, it’s too long a journey and I need money quickly.

Plus seeing people around you ‘jobbing’ - going from one low skilled job to the next - is just the norm. It isn’t seen as being a particularly low achiever, it’s just what most people do.

The thing is though, I didn’t come away from it feeling ‘sorry’ for them, or feeling that they were letting themselves down in not aspiring to ‘better things’. They had a very close, loving family. They weren’t starving. They didn’t take work home with them; so every evening and weekend was family time. There was no pressure on the kids to do well in exams, so no angst or anxiety there. If they didn’t like a job they just changed it, they didn’t feel trapped because they’d spent 5 years training to do it.

Money doesn’t always equal happiness. Sometimes I wonder if that’s a better deal.

I had never heard of the job of accountant growing up. It is not about a lack of aspirations if you do not know jobs exist. When I was growing up in a very poor area, the aspirational mums encouraged girls to be teachers. Because they were the most well-paid adult women most knew. My mum had no idea what other jobs outside her own sphere even paid. Middle-class, or even better off working-class people take so much knowledge for granted. And remember that most really poor families are also just busy trying to survive. My mum used to take us to the library after school in the winter, because it was warm. Yes we got lots of access to free books, but she was having to spend a lot of time providing the basics. Weekends would involve walking to the cheapest shops to buy food. I honestly think most middle-class people do not have a clue how hard it is to get out of long-term poverty. Not a fucking clue.
SpinsForGin · 20/02/2022 19:08

[quote worriedatthemoment]@SpinsForGin so what your saying is in one breath your parents job and education is no.1 prediction
Is that not a societal issue then
Straight away people are fighting stereotypes
Oh your mum doesn't work or works at tesco so that child won't achieve as much , why I hate research that does zero to address the issue
Most of the people i know in lower entry jobs absolutely tell their children to try and aim for a better job
I was sent a letter when my ds at shook towards end of year 11 offering me to apply for free revision books due to living in a deprived postcode , i didn't take them because we had actually bought them in year 9/10 when they needed them not a few weeks before exams , some research prob said that would tick a box [/quote]
Of course it's a societal issue.

And what makes you think that I'm doing research but not doing anything to address the issue?

worriedatthemoment · 20/02/2022 19:08

@the80sweregreat great contribution and just rude really
Wouldn't it be great if all these low income people went on strike everyday lets see how all the high flyers manage without them

SpinsForGin · 20/02/2022 19:09

I was sent a letter when my ds at shook towards end of year 11 offering me to apply for free revision books due to living in a deprived postcode , i didn't take them because we had actually bought them in year 9/10 when they needed them not a few weeks before exams , some research prob said that would tick a box

And just because you bought them doesn't mean all parents have or can afford them.

SpinsForGin · 20/02/2022 19:11

[quote worriedatthemoment]@the80sweregreat great contribution and just rude really
Wouldn't it be great if all these low income people went on strike everyday lets see how all the high flyers manage without them [/quote]
Why the angst against high flyers?

worriedatthemoment · 20/02/2022 19:12

@SpinsForGin you have said no one was stereotyping when they were and still are and said also many were speaking the truth as you studied it but didn't say who
I never said you personally were not addressing it but there has been much research done with not a lot if change , and all this research that gets done just speaking to people who live it could tell half of the problems straightaway
No offence to you as i have no idea what you are or not doing but being in amongst it for years not a lot has changed

worriedatthemoment · 20/02/2022 19:14

@SpinsForGin i have nothing against high flyers that was to someone who said what they said
Foe society to work we need people at all levels so some may see working at tescos as low aspiration or being a nursery nurse but most high flyers would need those services or similar so one can't be one without the other

Crikeyalmighty · 20/02/2022 19:15

I originally come from a midlands mining town— went to grammar school. I had quite a few friends from quite poor backgrounds but the thing they had in common was enthusiastic parents that all worked and encouraged them. On the other hand at primary school there were a fair chunk of poor families who had latchkey kids aged 6 , dad was always at the bookies or pub- mum doing various jobs to survive—or in some cases rarely worked at all — bad backs were a big thing! there was zero encouragement- they were too busy dealing with their own issues. The biggest thing you can do for your kids is encourage, listen, take time to find out what really interests them. ‘Successful’ can mean many things and not just financial, one of my sons still lives in that town with partner, they both have interesting jobs in their mid 30s , even if not hugely well paid) they have a beautiful 6 month old and they own a small modern 2 bedder— they don’t need colossal incomes because they have a mortgage of about £400 a month and they are happy and she will go back part time — it’s all relative.

VioletCharlotte · 20/02/2022 19:15

@SpinsForGin

I was sent a letter when my ds at shook towards end of year 11 offering me to apply for free revision books due to living in a deprived postcode , i didn't take them because we had actually bought them in year 9/10 when they needed them not a few weeks before exams , some research prob said that would tick a box

And just because you bought them doesn't mean all parents have or can afford them.

I think you're missing the point. The books were offered a few weeks before the exams, so would have been of little use anyway to a family who couldn't afford them.
worriedatthemoment · 20/02/2022 19:16

@SpinsForGin you missed the point though why was it sent in year 11 with a few weeks to go , those that couldn't afford them it was a bit late . Those kids needed the books then

Cheekypeach · 20/02/2022 19:19

This is the part where MN pretends to care about working class people while propagating the notion that having a ‘chavvy’ name should preclude you from a job interview on the name threads.

SleepingStandingUp · 20/02/2022 19:19

@ComtesseDeSpair
If no good school where you live try and move into a good catchment.
Yeah cos with the cost of moving, deposits etc let alone lack of availability and the rent difference bwtween HA where you are and private somewhere with great schools, that's totally doable for most WC families. Or not. That's without adding in commutes to work and family support.

worriedatthemoment · 20/02/2022 19:19

@VioletCharlotte exactly too late by the time they were offered and then people wonder why they don't do as well , when mine had finished With theirs I donated back to the school so that hopefully they could go to someone who needed them

worriedatthemoment · 20/02/2022 19:20

@Cheekypeach yes exactly that

Comefromaway · 20/02/2022 19:21

[quote SleepingStandingUp]@ComtesseDeSpair
If no good school where you live try and move into a good catchment.
Yeah cos with the cost of moving, deposits etc let alone lack of availability and the rent difference bwtween HA where you are and private somewhere with great schools, that's totally doable for most WC families. Or not. That's without adding in commutes to work and family support.[/quote]
That also relies on there actually being some good schools. For many, many years in my city there were non unless you went private.

SpinsForGin · 20/02/2022 19:21

[quote worriedatthemoment]@SpinsForGin you have said no one was stereotyping when they were and still are and said also many were speaking the truth as you studied it but didn't say who
I never said you personally were not addressing it but there has been much research done with not a lot if change , and all this research that gets done just speaking to people who live it could tell half of the problems straightaway
No offence to you as i have no idea what you are or not doing but being in amongst it for years not a lot has changed
[/quote]
I didn't say nobody was using stereotypes... I said that in and amongst some of the more ridiculous comments there are some valid points.

There actually has been progress but there still more to be made.

SpinsForGin · 20/02/2022 19:22

[quote worriedatthemoment]@SpinsForGin you missed the point though why was it sent in year 11 with a few weeks to go , those that couldn't afford them it was a bit late . Those kids needed the books then
[/quote]
Fair enough. Hopeful lessons have been learned and they're provided earlier next time.