to not know how to deal with DS? (Autism and Violence)

[1001Problems]

DS1 is 12. Over the last few years we have been wondering if he possibly has autistic traits but since puberty hit and then with the move to secondary school it is like living with Jekyll and Hyde.

We believe he has Pathological Demand Avoidance Autism - complete meltdowns triggered by requests/need to perform normal tasks. With DS this is homework and any household chores but is starting to escalate to things like getting dressed or putting shoes on. He is highly intelligent (in the 'gifted' category) hence it taking us so long to realise autism was the most likely cause, before the sudden violence in the last 12-18 months we just thought it was quirks of his gifted-ness.

The issue is his meltdowns are violent and directed at his siblings, mostly DD (10). He will then pummel DH or I if we get between him and his 'target'. It is now a regular situation for us to be barricading the younger children in a room while he beats us to try and get through.

I can find no help or information on what to do with a tween who physically attacks and keeps following you to keep attacking. Everything says 'back off, leave them to calm down' but he wont leave us! He keeps attacking until we get in the car and drive off leaving him home alone.

Has anyone got experience of this? Can anyone give some advice on dealing with this? DH and I are on our knees, our younger DC are scared of DS.

I have another appointment to talk with the GP, last time they sent us off for a 3 month wait for Teens in Crisis, 8 weeks of that to be told he doesnt have a problem, she wont refer him and that 'no-one will be interested in a family dynamic issue')

@1001Problems

DD is genuinely doing her best but she is a 10 year old child who understandably gets frustrated/forgets/cant cope anymore sometimes.

DD is a very outgoing and bubbly, she loves to sing and dance and chatter. If she had her way she would sing and hum and dance 24/7. DS is introverted, detailed and cannot understand making noise unless you are going to say something life altering. they are fundamentally very different people.

DD is already not singing in the communal areas - only in her room or the playroom. she is already limiting her chatting when he is in the room. She is massively restricting her natural instincts to try and help him not react. Of course some times she slips but in the main she is trying very very hard.

DS on the other hand doesnt see this as to him, why would anyone need/want to sing all the time anyway? So even if she sings one line, or asks what he thinks is a stupid question in his hearing he will react.

The other aspect is when the frustration is from something else and he goes looking for her to get his release of stress by lashing out at her. He doesnt really realise that is what he is doing, but he does.

There are other choices here: Ear phones or defenders for him, Him to move away Etc etc She does need to hear you explain to him he is responsible for modifying his physical context if he doesn’t like it, not her. Otherwise you are setting her up for a world if pain later on. If he is going to develop the resilience needed to work, live alone, etc then he also needs to be made responsible for his own coping mechanisms.

@1001Problems

After I speak to the GP next week I will look into private. The GP does private work so i'm hoping he can recommend someone.

Believe me, I know i have 3 other DC to protect but it is not as simple as chucking DS off to a residential school!

If your parents have offered to pay for a private assessment, take them up on it ASAP.

Even if GP agrees to refer to community paediatrics, they are likely to have a high threshold for assessment (which he might not meet due to masking at school) and a very long waiting list.

If you can go private, look at the PDA Society's list: www.pdasociety.org.uk/resources/independent-diagnostic-centres/

Also see www.pdasociety.org.uk/life-with-pda-menu/family-life-intro/diagnosing-pda-children/

Lastly, I suggest that you contact your council's SENDIASS service and/or children's services to request an Early Help Assessment.

Good luck

"This is not pda or asd but being an arsehole
It helped us to explain this to ds.
It is not always clear to the child with asd which things are ‘chosen’ behaviours and which driven by the asd."

When you are autistic, everything you do is done autistically. You see the world through autistic eyes and perceive senses through autistic senses. You interpret the world through an autistic lens all of the time, everywhere. You don't sleep neurotypically and then wake up and turn on your autism to avoid having a shower and cleaning you teeth, then walk to school autistically. It is a pervasive condition that utterly affects the way you perceive and interact with your world.

That doesn't mean it's acceptable for him to goad or attack his sister. But it IS important to grasp that when you are autistic everything you do is done autistically. If the OP can't try to get inside her son's head to work out what perceptions and motivations are driving this behaviour, then it's much less likely that she will stumble upon an intervention that works.

Generally speaking, young people do well when they can. The behaviour is a symptom that he can't do well at home. They need to find out why if they possibly can, in order to mitigate it.

Those suggesting "put him outside" - regardless of the rights or wrongs of it, you cannot do that with a 12 year old. They are not toddlers you can carry off screaming. They are too big and heavy.

Residential school at this stage will not be offered and is not a viable option.

If you are able to afford it I would suggest approaching a private Psychiatrist to confirm the ASD diagnosis and help you to explore some calming medication to take the edge off of his outbursts. You will then be in a better position to approach the school and be able to take the Psychiatrists advice regarding behaviour management. Look up Yvonne Newbold on Facebook. She is a fountain of wisdom regarding violent ASD presentation. I am so sorry your sin is suffering in the way he is.

Teenylittlefella - I have an adult son with ASD. He had aggressive outbursts both at home and at school. He had to learn that hitting other children/adults was not acceptable, no matter how frustrated or angry he felt. If he hit a child at school he was excluded for a day, and quite right too. As he became older and started secondary school I made it very clear to him that if he hit a child then their parents could involve the police and that as he got older they could press charges for assault. He had to learn to walk away from situations rather than hitting out at others. We also had the same at home. If he found himself getting angry or frustrated he was not allowed to hit siblings or us parents, that had consequences. Strict rules and boundaries worked for us.

It is not ok for the OP's son to deliberately seek out his sister and physically hurt her to get relief when he is feeling overwhelmed. He would not get away with this behaviour at school. He will continue to do this until he is shown another outlet, as at the moment he knows this works for him. That is not fair on the younger sibling.

Your story sounds very familiar.

We were in exactly the same position with DD. She’s now coming up to 15, and we are almost on
the other side of the diagnosis pathway, and the professional so far agree that it’s looking very much like high-functioning Autism (yes I know there are issues with the title) .. and I also suspect PDD.

I’ve been punched, kicked, but, pushed over, my clothes ripped, sworn at - allsorts .. and it’s horrible. You are not alone.

We have had to learn a lot about how we parent, and have change completely over the last two years. We were lucky you access services local to us, as well as push-push-push through CAMHS.

First thing - young people do not like feeling like this, they do not like feeling out of control, it’s not enjoyable uk them to be like this. It’s like the neurons in their brain are firing all over the place - you can’t reason with them, talk to them or anything - you have to leave them until they calm down.

The trick is to spot it before it happens, and try to stop it - we had problem with Homework .. so just told her it was up to her and I wasn’t getting involved - if it’s done it’s done, if it’s not it’s not .. it’s her issue up deal with. Letting go, was absolutely key.

Also, having nice conversations when they are in good spirits - what are they interested in .. get involved .. spend time together that’s not about conflict. Mine had hyper fixations .. currently NHL Ice Hockey, but we have had allsorts - so we talk about that, or watch some - and whilst that is happening, I’ll slip in other stuff.

For my daughter, getting a diagnosis has been life changing, she spend 14 years upset about “what’s wrong with me” and now we have something to work with.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed helpful advice and shared their stories. This has given me some great resources to look at and some new ideas to put in place.

Clearly there are some on here who have no idea how ASD/PDA works - if it was a simple as 'set boundaries' 'make him understand it is unacceptable' I wouldn't have needed to make this post!!

So short term plan is that DS will spend two afternoon/evenings a week with my parents. Then one weekend DS will stay with my parents, the next weekend the other DC stay with them.

I am currently getting overnight/spare clothes etc packed up so a set can be kept at my parents so if DS kicks off the other DC can be picked up/dropped off without needing to spend time packing bags etc.

I have managed to restructure my work and other commitments so when DS is home I have no other demands on my time other than to be around with the DC to try and see the signs earlier.

GP appt on tuesday and will ask for private recommendations.

A friend is getting me details of some children's therapists that she works with for DD.

I have bookmarked all the websites suggested to have a good read of over the weekend.

I really do appreciate those who have taken time to post advice and those who have understood the complexity of the situation. Thank you.

I just want to say you sound like a lovely parent. I really don't know if I could cope with this, so i think your amazing. I second others saying this needs to be recorded, to show to your sonto try and make him see and also to anyone else supporting you in the future. They need to see the reality of the situation.
This is just not fair on your DD and I think there sometimes comes a time when you have to stop focusing on the person acting this way, and focus on trying to help and protect the victim. You DD in this situation. This could be doing untold damage to her.

My son is not violent (at the moment) but we've dealt with the effects of having a child with asd and having one without. Our son seemed to get nearly all of our attention and our daughter was being pushed out and we didn't realise. He would have meltdowns and we would both send daughter out of the room where she had to sit alone whilst we dealt with our son. This happened alot. It just wasn't fair on her. We've been lucky that hes grown out of the meltdowns but he hasn't hit puberty yet so dreading that a little!

manamia "It is not ok for the OP's son to deliberately seek out his sister and physically hurt her to get relief when he is feeling overwhelmed. He would not get away with this behaviour at school."

I absolutely agree. In my post I said it was not acceptable!

Also have an autistic adult child. Also dealt with meltdowns, anger etc.
My point is, everything is "part of autism" if you are autistic. You don't keep autism in a bag and bring it out when socialising. It's who you are. And prevention is better than cure, obviously, as OP knows.

@Teenylittlefella

"This is not pda or asd but being an arsehole It helped us to explain this to ds. It is not always clear to the child with asd which things are ‘chosen’ behaviours and which driven by the asd."

When you are autistic, everything you do is done autistically. You see the world through autistic eyes and perceive senses through autistic senses. You interpret the world through an autistic lens all of the time, everywhere. You don't sleep neurotypically and then wake up and turn on your autism to avoid having a shower and cleaning you teeth, then walk to school autistically. It is a pervasive condition that utterly affects the way you perceive and interact with your world.

That doesn't mean it's acceptable for him to goad or attack his sister. But it IS important to grasp that when you are autistic everything you do is done autistically. If the OP can't try to get inside her son's head to work out what perceptions and motivations are driving this behaviour, then it's much less likely that she will stumble upon an intervention that works.

Generally speaking, young people do well when they can. The behaviour is a symptom that he can't do well at home. They need to find out why if they possibly can, in order to mitigate it.

Of course you are right- teenytiny -and still- some things are chosen and some things are driven (by asd, or anything else) and children (with or without asd) cannot always differentiate between these motivations by themselves.

As an aside, he sounds like he is using interacting with people to regulate his (considerable) anger-perhaps why he objects to his room.
But it may not have to be you (what about talking radio, tv, audiobooks, FaceTiming a relative, FaceTiming you from his room, voice medication, etc)

@1001Problems

Thank you to everyone who has contributed helpful advice and shared their stories. This has given me some great resources to look at and some new ideas to put in place.

Clearly there are some on here who have no idea how ASD/PDA works - if it was a simple as 'set boundaries' 'make him understand it is unacceptable' I wouldn't have needed to make this post!!

So short term plan is that DS will spend two afternoon/evenings a week with my parents. Then one weekend DS will stay with my parents, the next weekend the other DC stay with them.

I am currently getting overnight/spare clothes etc packed up so a set can be kept at my parents so if DS kicks off the other DC can be picked up/dropped off without needing to spend time packing bags etc.

I have managed to restructure my work and other commitments so when DS is home I have no other demands on my time other than to be around with the DC to try and see the signs earlier.

GP appt on tuesday and will ask for private recommendations.

A friend is getting me details of some children's therapists that she works with for DD.

I have bookmarked all the websites suggested to have a good read of over the weekend.

I really do appreciate those who have taken time to post advice and those who have understood the complexity of the situation. Thank you.

I'd be careful of suggesting that anyone causes him to get violent with them.Hes 12 and verbal, gifted even.He can control it at school, he can control it at home It isn't her fault. That's not to say that the environment can't change to be more relaxing for him.