to not know how to deal with DS? (Autism and Violence)

[1001Problems]

DS1 is 12. Over the last few years we have been wondering if he possibly has autistic traits but since puberty hit and then with the move to secondary school it is like living with Jekyll and Hyde.

We believe he has Pathological Demand Avoidance Autism - complete meltdowns triggered by requests/need to perform normal tasks. With DS this is homework and any household chores but is starting to escalate to things like getting dressed or putting shoes on. He is highly intelligent (in the 'gifted' category) hence it taking us so long to realise autism was the most likely cause, before the sudden violence in the last 12-18 months we just thought it was quirks of his gifted-ness.

The issue is his meltdowns are violent and directed at his siblings, mostly DD (10). He will then pummel DH or I if we get between him and his 'target'. It is now a regular situation for us to be barricading the younger children in a room while he beats us to try and get through.

I can find no help or information on what to do with a tween who physically attacks and keeps following you to keep attacking. Everything says 'back off, leave them to calm down' but he wont leave us! He keeps attacking until we get in the car and drive off leaving him home alone.

Has anyone got experience of this? Can anyone give some advice on dealing with this? DH and I are on our knees, our younger DC are scared of DS.

I have another appointment to talk with the GP, last time they sent us off for a 3 month wait for Teens in Crisis, 8 weeks of that to be told he doesnt have a problem, she wont refer him and that 'no-one will be interested in a family dynamic issue')

@ChuckBerrysBoots

There is a greater awareness and focus on child-to-parent violence in local authorities and the voluntary sector than there used to be, the trick will be engaging with a service that understands your son’s additional needs. An organisation like IPSEA may be able to signpost you somewhere useful.

Yes, exactly this. Would be slightly cautious about universal offers/relatively unskilled input, and particularly universal behavioural approaches, in advance of establishing exactly what your child's specific needs are.

@1001Problems

I have my parents who will drop everything to help and have offered to pay for private help to get him assessed. So it is possible for DS to 'move out' for a few days/a week or similar. or the other DC can go and stay for a bit too.

You're jumping too far ahead. You can help him.

@Xenia

Buying a small one bed flat where he can live with a llarge male live in carer who gets him up and off to school and supervises homework whilst you all visit him in the evenings and perhaps take him home for one day at at weekends might be an option.

This is a dreadful option.

[quote Teenylittlefella]@Equalbutdifferent

www.acamh.org/research-digest/intolerance-of-uncertainty-underlies-demand-avoidance-behaviours-in-children/[/quote]
100% this.

HoodieHoodie, Totally agree wrt the option of medication.
It would need to be prescribed by a consultant paediatrician and I have been told it is only prescribed alongside a diagnosis of ADHD.
Despite asking for an assessment for ADHD, we were refused on the grounds that autism explains the behaviours i am seeing, and since DD already has a diagnosis of autism, an assessment for ADHD wasnt deemed necessary.
Now we must wait for another appointment with the paediatrician, so we can ask again.

I'm not sure what peoples expectations of social care are, but we have an extremely supportive sw, and DD has lots of support, but no amount of support has been successful in reducing or stopping the violence, or enabling DD to understand the effect her behaviour has on others, quite simply because she doesnt have the capacity to empathise, and sees no benefit to herself to pretend to have empathy.

She has learned over the years to say sorry when she has upset someone. This is not accompanied by a feeling of remorse at all, nor a desire to placate the other person. It is purely a means of getting the other person who has been upset to stop being upset and continue doing whatever DD wants.
For example, DD punches someone. They wont play with her. She apologises, then expects them to resume play.
It has taken years and years to teach her to apologise and she expects instant results in her favour.
As soon as it doesnt work, she resorts to violence again. 🤦🏻‍♀️

Can I just add, that at no time have I ever told DD that apologising is a way to get what she wants.
I have always told her an apology is because you are sorry and feel bad that the other person is upset.
DD replied that she doesnt feel bad though so apologising is telling a lie.
A teacher told her that it makes the other person feel better, and whenever DD apologises, she says it's to make the other person feel better so they stop asking her to go away/continue play/give her what she wants.

I am sure I am replicating what others have said and don’t mean to ramble but do look at www.pegsupport.co.uk/ as well as Yvonne Newbold on Facebook.

We went proactively to the police so they could put a flag on our house. I was worried neighbours might call them - so at least the police would know we had a son with ASD and challenging behaviour - so hopefully they could temper their response accordingly. They did come out once and were vaguely helpful.

Unfortunately my son has broken through doors on previous occasions so is there any other way out of the playroom? My husband had to climb out of the living room window once!

Also agree we have the tiny cold bags which have a bottle of water and a few cereal bars in our safe rooms. We also have duvets in the boot of the car and snacks in case.

Be clear to your other children that they shouldn’t try and intervene or put themselves in danger. I’ve always just told the twins to get out - not to worry about me if the situation looks serious.
I always have back door unlocked I am always aware where my son is in relation to the rest of the family. I try really hard to always be between him and the door.

Either CAMHs or SS might offer non violent resistance training. I asked several times - but wasn’t in the right pathway unfortunately.

My son has learning difficulties and ASD which makes it harder to reason. The aggression all came out of no where at the start of puberty - I suspect as well he was totally academically overwhelmed by going to secondary. He is now 18. The physical violence has dramatically lessoned but it is still there. Always due to some sort of anxiety but usually difficult for us to get to the bottom of.

Sorry taken so long to type this that I imagine the conversation has moved on. Do look after yourself. It’s relentless.

I think you’re all too focussed on DS here, but this is hurting all the family.

To be honest, you need to start with the non-negotiables, not the ins and outs of DS’ daily routine.

Protect the younger child. Yes, that does mean restraining and locking DS in as nec.

Psychiatric treatment for DS - hard yes to selling stuff to go private. Sorry.

Locks and new safe spaces (for you) at home.

Fine to call the police in extremis.

I am in awe of you who are managing to push through with violent children in your homes.

I read @mangoberries decision re residential schools, but I think with 3 other children in the house the OP should consider this.

Obviously a diagnosis is the most important step.

Have you considered private diagnosis to speed things up?

After I speak to the GP next week I will look into private. The GP does private work so i'm hoping he can recommend someone.

Believe me, I know i have 3 other DC to protect but it is not as simple as chucking DS off to a residential school!

How does he behave when he goes to your DP's? Would him staying with them for a couple of days each week (I know that's a huge ask) give you, and especially your other DC's a break?

He is completely fine if the other DC (particularly DD) are not there. so if my parents have just him they wont have a problem. but also they wont be asking him to do anything! so no triggers

Please please do not call the Police - i work with adults with autism and a lot have had the Police called by schools/parents and it has never been positive for them.

Many are left with trauma and I know several who have ended up in hospitals or care homes against their parent wishes leaving lifelong scars.

I know there may come a moment where you feel you have no choice in order to protect your other children but it really should be a last resort and avoided if at all possible.

Try and find some way of training in break away techniques like proact – scipr which is what many care homes use with adults who lose control.

The trauma for the other children in the house is real too though.

@1001Problems

He is completely fine if the other DC (particularly DD) are not there. so if my parents have just him they wont have a problem. but also they wont be asking him to do anything! so no triggers

Are your other children female (other than the one he is attacking the most?) What is she saying about him doing this and how do your parents see it? I'm sure it isn't the case but it's a bit sad that she is being accepted as his 'trigger'.

Interesting that he is fine if siblings are not around. DD resents her brother simply for existing, and she is angry with me for having had him. On the one hand, I find her attitude towards her brother heartbreaking, but I can also understand it - for her, socialising is stressful, so having another person in what should be a place to relax is difficult and stressful. Maybe it could help him if you acknowledged that you understand how difficult it is for him to have 2 siblings, while also making it clear that they have a right to be safe. As he is fine at your parents, I would jump at the chance and let him stay there regularly for as long as possible! Building in breaks now could buy you time to get him assessed, start therapy, maybe do some building work at home, etc. Also take the stressors away. Speak to the school and ask them to tell your son that he won't have to do homework and that he won't be punished for not doing it. See if that improves behaviour. It is interesting that he is fine at your parents. I would copy their behaviour. I stopped all demands on my dd (appart from not hitting/being unkind to her brother). I don't remind her/ask her/fuss over her. I don't ask her to do homework/practice instruments. There is a set bedtime on schooldays but not on weekends. She can choose what and when and where she eats. I don't ask her to do any chores or tidy up after her. The result was very positive. She now does an awful lot on her own accord, in her own time. I must admit I was quite scared to back off completely, as there is so much talk about 'children need boundaries' and I was anxious that she would 'fail' or 'get spoiled' if I wasn't directing her/make her do chores etc. But she is absolutely fine as a result. Much happier, much more motivated, much fewer meltdowns. We also negotiated with school that she didn't need to do things at school she didn't like, like wearing parts of obligatory uniform, taking part in certain activities, and also with homework we asked school to positively ask her not to do homework on certain days we knew she would feel overwhelmed, as she had other things on, like music and sport. Again, that made a huge difference to her behaviour/anxiety levels. I am glad DD is a girl and not a boy - the extra strength and testosterone must make it all so much harder. I am feeling for you, and your dc. Just don't forget how wonderful your DS is, and that he is ultimately a kid struggling to cope in a world that is just the wrong fit for his wiring.

@BlackeyedSusan

Talk to DD. She has got to stop whatever it is that triggers him. If she does it deliberately she gets punished too. Be aware she may be neurodiverse too and may be stimming.

Keep them as separate as possible. Had to do that with mine.

Bloody hell! One child gets assaulted by an older sibling to the point where the parents have to protect her and you’re blaming her??? The OP has not indicated that his sister is deliberately triggering him so don’t blame her. Shocking.

Hi OP, haven't read the full thread but just posting to say we have this issue and the only therapy that really helped was something called NVR (Non Violent Resistance). PM me if you want the name (it was over Zoom). Look on the PDA Society website for strategies (PANDA) and see if they have a link to a local to you Facebook group for parents.

Good strategies in The Explosive Child and 10 Days to a Less Defiant Child too.

"Mainstream" people who haven't encountered this don't get it and may react unhelpfully. Your oldest child is a child.

Things can improve with effort and (sadly) applying cash.

Just thinking about if you could build a garden room for your other DC to escape to?

You could use if for one person at a time?

My son now 21 hit puberty at 14-info-he had a stroke in NICU and has severe SN such as cerebral palsy and anxiety with some autistic traits and he became violent and dangerous among other things-diagnosed with mood disorder on top of all the other labels he'd acquired. We had to have him committed to investigate what medications he needed and to stabilize his behavior. It was almost 4 months that were so, so difficult and fraught but it worked and he had intense outpatient supervision with psychiatry. Your son is at a point he needs intense, inpatient type of help to regulate him. I'm not advocating turning him into a medicated zombie but this is not sustainable for your family.

other DC - DD1 (10) DS2 (9) and DD2 (6).

I am acutely aware of the repercussions for DD. And she absolutely deserves for her home to be a safe place for her. And no matter what she does or does not do it is never acceptable for someone to assault her. She is confused as to why he picks on her. It makes her very sad and is affecting her confidence.

I am very aware I need to balance the best interests of all my DC, thats what i'm trying to do.

I will look at NVR - thank you.

No-one is condoning the violence. We explain that we think DS has a condition and that it stops him being able to manage himself but we do not ever excuse his violence as acceptable or tell DD she is expected to accept it.

Sometimes it is a case of doing the least bad option. It’s always a difficult balancing act when there are children with differing needs.
I try and do individual stuff with the twins (which has its own dynamic!)
It’s good though that you have parents to utilise. I must admit when things were really bad we would go to random hotels for the weekend just to escape and leave my husband with my son.

It’s so tough but it sounds like you have some strategies and maybe some new options from this thread.

OP your post really resonates with me, I am in a similar position myself and it is so hard with siblings.

I think Blackeyedsusan may be making the point that autistic people have to modify their behaviour adjust to an NT world. To some extent those living with an autistic person may also have to adjust their behaviour to help that person. So perhaps your DD may need to learn when to do or not do certain things to help prevent a meltdown in your DS - a meltdown is someone not coping after all, not just someone lashing out for the hell of it. From reading your posts this does not seems to be the case in your family, if just her mere presence sets him off so perhaps in your house that is not required but certainly in our house we had to speak to siblings and make it clear that if DS asks someone to stop making a certain noise for example, then they needed to stop etc.

Something that really helps my autistic DS is knowing what is going to happen and sometimes it needs to be written down. And such small changes can really affect him, such as someone sitting in a different place at the dinner table, or stopping off for petrol on the way home unexpectedly. I have come to realise that he buries these frustrations throughout the day/week and then explodes for what seems like no reason. Of course there are many reasons but until I realised this I had absolutely no idea what was causing the meltdowns or what to do about it. I guess that would be one of his "triggers".

I wish I could advise you but I can't because I don't have the answers - hence why I have the same issues! I mainly wanted to offer some solidarity because I get how draining and hard it is. And even finding the headspace to take on board and implement all the great suggestions people are giving here is overwhelming and feels impossible sometimes.

My thought is instead of barricading the younger child in a room. Barricade DS in a room on his own until he calms down. The room may get smashed up but I feel like that would make more sense. Barricading the younger DC feels like a punishment when they have done nothing wrong. DS can stay in the room until they have calmed down. Just short term idea while you work through all the good suggestions in this thread.