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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not know how to deal with DS? (Autism and Violence)

164 replies

1001Problems · 16/02/2022 08:49

DS1 is 12. Over the last few years we have been wondering if he possibly has autistic traits but since puberty hit and then with the move to secondary school it is like living with Jekyll and Hyde.

We believe he has Pathological Demand Avoidance Autism - complete meltdowns triggered by requests/need to perform normal tasks. With DS this is homework and any household chores but is starting to escalate to things like getting dressed or putting shoes on. He is highly intelligent (in the 'gifted' category) hence it taking us so long to realise autism was the most likely cause, before the sudden violence in the last 12-18 months we just thought it was quirks of his gifted-ness.

The issue is his meltdowns are violent and directed at his siblings, mostly DD (10). He will then pummel DH or I if we get between him and his 'target'. It is now a regular situation for us to be barricading the younger children in a room while he beats us to try and get through.

I can find no help or information on what to do with a tween who physically attacks and keeps following you to keep attacking. Everything says 'back off, leave them to calm down' but he wont leave us! He keeps attacking until we get in the car and drive off leaving him home alone.

Has anyone got experience of this? Can anyone give some advice on dealing with this? DH and I are on our knees, our younger DC are scared of DS.

I have another appointment to talk with the GP, last time they sent us off for a 3 month wait for Teens in Crisis, 8 weeks of that to be told he doesnt have a problem, she wont refer him and that 'no-one will be interested in a family dynamic issue')

OP posts:
HoodieHoodie · 16/02/2022 11:35

Most people know that violence towards others is unacceptable. You probably don’t need to teach him that, he already knows.

He needs help and strategies to give him other options, at a time where he’s able to choose them.

1001Problems · 16/02/2022 11:38

Yes I'm quite sure we are missing some signs but despite looking I cant find them yet!! I am trying. and he is unable to tell me.

I have just left a message with a local handyman to get a lock fitted to the playroom and I do like the idea of a 'safety basket' of items for them when they are in there - snacks etc. at least with the playroom they have their toys and a tv etc.

he has not been bullied at school, no one is picking on him. he finds some of the kids 'annoying' but nothing to indicate more than that. but i will keep an eye on this.

OP posts:
Onionpatch · 16/02/2022 11:38

@Mamamia7962 It is not acceptable and there is a consequence whether the parent puts one in place or not. But if this child has autism and pda just explaining that something is not acceptable and putting in even a severe consequence will not change the behaviour or prevent it happening again. If only it were that easy.

using autism and pda specific techniques and giving the child tools to self regulate will help significantly more to prevent this happening.

CoutureBakes · 16/02/2022 11:39

@1001Problems
I'm sorry was still reading the thread and impulse replying before I've seen all the info..one thing I'll say..I strongly disagree with the posters recommending police involvement. I understand that it's not going to be easy I am also mostly alone in the evenings with my 3DC and two have Asd and difficult behaviours, alls I can advise is learning to identify the build up to DS behaviours...I never thought I would crack it but we got through as I mentioned before my 15 is now able to walk away...he still screams swears and occasionally breaks things...but things broken is better than someone hurt. Baby steps and all...
I got support from school family support worker for 3 years even though they couldn't physically help me with him it helped to have someone teach me how to handle him without emotion, and they also spoke to him weekly on techniques to regulate himself, general stuff and also let him vent about his Sister without judgement and they would approach me with any major concerns so I could work on improving his triggers etc.

I am sorry to assume your DD was being naughty I was just thinking of mine and her quiet involvement like I said I found out about what she had been up to teasing her brother about things like bed wetting and telling others about it, I found out through another child, I never would have believed she would do that otherwise.
It got so bad at one point he did used to just go for her without provocation because he was constantly wanting her attention and was actually quite controlling when she showed Indepence (they are close in age and he was used to her following him about and doing what he wanted)

It got so bad at a point Dp and I considered splitting up and taking one each!
Neither of us could agree on who would be full time with DS

I used to think I would have to give one up to keep the other safe. Its so strange now they are the best of friends but she will always be wary.

No matter what she did or didn't say or do it was never an excuse for her brother to be violent, so that was a hardship, I begged my g.p for SS involment to keep her safe but they never appeared...I did get another year with the family worker though and that does help to show you are trying and may get you more help in future...for the most part in my experience you will have your parenting picked apart for sure before you make any progress, stay strong x

1001Problems · 16/02/2022 11:44

mamamia I'm still learning about how to handle him but one thing I do know is that the traditional 'consequences for bad behaviour' that works with an NT child at best does nothing and at worst makes it even more awful for a Neurodiverse child.

couture DH and I have also spoken about needing a flat for one of us and DS in order to keep the others safe. its heartbreaking.

I will look into the family support workers and see if this is an option through the shcools.

OP posts:
Mangoberries · 16/02/2022 11:51

I sympathise with you OP.
Most people cannot imagine what it is like to have a violent child.
My DD 13 is autistic, PDA and our lives are completely ruled by her violence. Even when she is not being violent, we are carefully tiptoeing around so as not to trigger her.
DD has been violent for most of her life, but of course, as she has got older, she has grown stronger and I'm sorry to say that we have no answers.
DD has a diagnosis, an EHCP, and I believe social care, where she is registered on their disability team, are doing all they can, but they cannot stop her being violent.
I have read the explosive child book, I have completed parenting courses, I have engaged with social care, yet we are still left to deal with the fallout every single day, and this seems to be the case for the parents of the violent children i know.

DD punches, kicks, bites, headbangs, pushes, claws at me and destroys my belongings. I am always bruised but more than that, I am now demoralised and exhausted with it.

DD doesnt only resort to violence, she also humiliates and verbally attacks me too.
She is far too strong to control and requires at least 3 adults to safely hold her.

It feels like I'm being bullied in my own home every single day.

Most people have no idea how impossible it is.

The police are reluctant to get involved, because DD has additional needs. Yes, that's what the police said when I called 999 because she was beating me and I had locked myself in the toilet to escape her.

Our only option now is a residential school, but from the ineffective and barbaric way I have seen her managed at special schools, is not an option for us.

DD has zero empathy, cannot see anything from another's view point, feels no remorse or embarrassment, has no patience, is excessively controlling and doesnt actually want to change, because let's be honest, being violent is an effective way to get other people to succumb to your wishes.
Just writing these few words doesnt nearly describe half of what it's like.

So, imagine you are living with a fully grown violent adult, strong and intelligent enough to understand when you are trying to distract them, but they are determined to have whatever they want at any cost, and if that requires manipulation, threats, humiliation, threat of damage to your things or violence, then that's what will happen.
What would anyone suggest? They certainly wouldnt suggest reward and punishment (ineffective with DD) because this is a grown adult and who are you to attempt to control them? No one would suggest you approach a fully grown violent adult and remove what you class as their privileges, or insist they sit somewhere and calm down.
None of the standard behaviour management techniques are effective with a violent adult, which is why so many DV victims turn into shells of their former selves, and live their lives in fear.
If managing violent behaviour was this easy, we wouldnt have half as many womens aid shelters, because the victims could just get the man to sit on the thinking step, or avoid his triggers, or remove his privileges, or explain how his behaviour is making you feel.
But this doesnt work, and this is the reality of living and loving someone who is regularly violent, controlling and manipulative.

Most people would run for the hills, because that's sensible, but this is not a violent bully of an adult. This is your child.

OP, The only solution I think works is to remove the child from the situation. This usually means a residential school. I am not ready for that, but I hope I dont regret passing that up at a later date.

Mangoberries · 16/02/2022 11:55

@BlackeyedSusan

Drop the homework. Not worth it. Contact school immediately though and get it written in his plan by sendco/year head/head of house otherwise you'll get some jobsworth of a teacher having a mega stress about it and more meltdowns. ( Most teachers are fine when you contact them. Some have a mad moment, some are bloody intransigent and push kids to self harm)

Do calming activities every day. Google
Keep him well fed:feed immediately after school. (We did glucose, sucrose and complex carbs)
Give him somewhere quiet at home to calm down after school. (prevention)
Get a lock on the kids doors.

Find out what has changed to make this difficult behaviour start. Often school can trigger it inadvertently. Ring school asap to discuss.

Don't talk to him in a meltdown. He is only emotion and physical. You can restrain kids that are a danger to others and themself. Get training. It's easy to do it wrong. (bear hug from behind) if there are two of you it's easier to do hands and feet.

I sometimes text mine or phone them when they are getting agitated to calm them.

Look for triggers and intervene early.

Contact GP and Mind for help.

Restraint training is not offered to parents anymore, certainly not in my county. I have asked. The reason I was given is because of the risk of parents using it unnecessarily, and there being no one to witness it is being used appropriately in the home. In a professional setting, restraint cannot be used for punishment, and must be carried out in the presence of at least 2 adults to prevent any accusations of improper use.
1001Problems · 16/02/2022 12:31

mangoberries I am so sorry to read your story and so much of it resonates. i completely feel the desperation. I've literally just said this to my mum - if DS was my DP social services would tell me to leave him or lose my children. I feel like i'm failing him.

OP posts:
Theladyinthepinkcoat · 16/02/2022 12:36

It's drastic, but I do agree with PP recommending contacting the police. It will trigger referrals to Social Services to help get you some form of support and intervention. Which should then also trigger mental health support. The opinion of a Professional eg social worker seems to carry more weight than that of a parent.

blackdumpling · 16/02/2022 12:48

I'd be medicating him pronto
Yes medication is a big decision, but a whole family cannot suffer due to the behaviour of one
It's unfair to the family unit
Medication could take the edge off him
Also have you thought of getting a flat for your son & partner to live in?
You & partner can swap & spend time with son in the flat
Your other children should not be suffering at the hands of their brother
Even if ASD is the reason
It's still abuse
Putting locks on young children's doors is a fire hazard
They should not have to live in fear of their sibling
I understand you don't want to live separately from your partner
But it may save your marriage
He is only going to get worse as he gets older/bigger/stronger
He will one day be able to overpower both you & your DH
IMO

Teenylittlefella · 16/02/2022 12:49

I don't want to be critical, but if you read the Explosive Child then you certainly haven't put it into practice properly. The whole point is not to impose adult solutions but to try to come up with a plan together, which is acceptable to both of you. It teaches the skills of planning, negotiation and compromise which all tend to be lagging skills for explosive kids.

It's an issue where PDA is assumed to be the cause that people kind of hear "drop the demands" "it's about anxiety" and they kind of understand but don't grasp that having no boundaries and structures is in itself anxiety provoking. PDA type behaviours are rooted in intolerance of uncertainty. By phrasing everything as a question or asking him what he wants to do you are increasing his responsibility and therefore his experience of uncertainty. Choices within a boundary often work better in my experience. Eg 7-8 is set aside for homework, but is he going to work on maths or history tonight? Would he like a hot chocolate or a glass of squash while he works? Would he prefer you to sit with him, or not, for this piece of work?
If you are getting him to work out a solution with you, it needs to be genuinely collaborative.

Re plan B from explosive child: example.

"I have noticed you getting stressed about your homework recently. What's that about?" As the opener to a discussion
Would be plan B

"You do not have to do any homework" would be plan C (drop the demand)

"I am going to sit with you and help you manage your homework each evening" is plan A (adult solution)

All 3 of these have their place.

Currently you are muddling through with a mash up of plan C and plan A (dropping demands or trying to get him to choose) and it's not really working.

Xenia · 16/02/2022 12:52

Buying a small one bed flat where he can live with a llarge male live in carer who gets him up and off to school and supervises homework whilst you all visit him in the evenings and perhaps take him home for one day at at weekends might be an option.

nanbread · 16/02/2022 12:59

OK so I haven't read all posts, but have you come across the PDA support group on Facebook? If you can, I would join it.

Two other things to look into:

Non violent resistance training (find somewhere that knows about adapting it for PDA)

Declarative language

HoodieHoodie · 16/02/2022 12:59

@blackdumpling medicate with what?

There are antidepressants that can help with the anxiety, but it is nigh on impossible to have these prescribed for a child, plus the potential side effects in adolescence.

It’s shitty and hard work, but there are strategies that can help. Home educating is definitely worth considering. If you can afford another house/flat to allow everyone to have a break at some time (I don’t agree with Xenia that he should be left with a male carer) then that could be ideal (dh and I split up which helped - we didn’t split for that reason though).

1001Problems · 16/02/2022 13:01

teeny - we have the routine that we agreed on together with him. He comes home, he has one hour of free time with no questions/demands asked. he and I then talk through what he has to do for homework and he plans it out and tells me when he plans to do it. my job is then to remind him of the time and let him know what task he should be on. it's a lovely plan. it just falls apart when it gets to the actual 'do the homework' part when he remembers he doesnt want to do it and then it kicks off.

I promise i do my best to do the Plan B thing (obviously some times i slip up/get fed up - dont we all?) I bend over backwards to give the time, space, support etc that he wants/needs but it still isnt enough to stop him lashing out.

And my other children need me too.

OP posts:
nanbread · 16/02/2022 13:01

@Teenylittlefella

I don't want to be critical, but if you read the Explosive Child then you certainly haven't put it into practice properly. The whole point is not to impose adult solutions but to try to come up with a plan together, which is acceptable to both of you. It teaches the skills of planning, negotiation and compromise which all tend to be lagging skills for explosive kids.

It's an issue where PDA is assumed to be the cause that people kind of hear "drop the demands" "it's about anxiety" and they kind of understand but don't grasp that having no boundaries and structures is in itself anxiety provoking. PDA type behaviours are rooted in intolerance of uncertainty. By phrasing everything as a question or asking him what he wants to do you are increasing his responsibility and therefore his experience of uncertainty. Choices within a boundary often work better in my experience. Eg 7-8 is set aside for homework, but is he going to work on maths or history tonight? Would he like a hot chocolate or a glass of squash while he works? Would he prefer you to sit with him, or not, for this piece of work?
If you are getting him to work out a solution with you, it needs to be genuinely collaborative.

Re plan B from explosive child: example.

"I have noticed you getting stressed about your homework recently. What's that about?" As the opener to a discussion
Would be plan B

"You do not have to do any homework" would be plan C (drop the demand)

"I am going to sit with you and help you manage your homework each evening" is plan A (adult solution)

All 3 of these have their place.

Currently you are muddling through with a mash up of plan C and plan A (dropping demands or trying to get him to choose) and it's not really working.

This sounds great in theory, but what do you do when your DC will not engage with or answer the question let alone enter the problem solving stage?
ChuckBerrysBoots · 16/02/2022 13:03

There is a greater awareness and focus on child-to-parent violence in local authorities and the voluntary sector than there used to be, the trick will be engaging with a service that understands your son’s additional needs. An organisation like IPSEA may be able to signpost you somewhere useful.

nanbread · 16/02/2022 13:03

Sometimes PDA kids do better when they understand WHY something is the way it is.

Can you come up with a concrete reason why he needs to do his homework?

georama · 16/02/2022 13:03

@Xenia

Buying a small one bed flat where he can live with a llarge male live in carer who gets him up and off to school and supervises homework whilst you all visit him in the evenings and perhaps take him home for one day at at weekends might be an option.
Right because everyone can afford that.
1001Problems · 16/02/2022 13:04

I have my parents who will drop everything to help and have offered to pay for private help to get him assessed. So it is possible for DS to 'move out' for a few days/a week or similar. or the other DC can go and stay for a bit too.

OP posts:
nanbread · 16/02/2022 13:04

It also sounds like he's not coping at school. What options do you have there?

Sleepyblueocean · 16/02/2022 13:11

When ds 15 is hitting out we get a door between us and stay the other side of it but ds has a severe learning disability so his ability to get past barriers is more limited.
Ds has medication for anxiety which has reduced the number of incidents. There is more lead up time to avert and descalate.
Restraint training isn't given to parents because 2:1 is always required. We had breakaway training ( releasing yourself from grabs and holds so you can get away) but only when we had shown we were doing everything possible to prevent situations occurring.
Challenging behaviour can escalate at puberty and then reduce in late teens.
The main thing is to look at preventing escalation which I know as having a teenager with dozens of triggers, is difficult.

Equalbutdifferent · 16/02/2022 13:15

@Teenylittlefella

I don't want to be critical, but if you read the Explosive Child then you certainly haven't put it into practice properly. The whole point is not to impose adult solutions but to try to come up with a plan together, which is acceptable to both of you. It teaches the skills of planning, negotiation and compromise which all tend to be lagging skills for explosive kids.

It's an issue where PDA is assumed to be the cause that people kind of hear "drop the demands" "it's about anxiety" and they kind of understand but don't grasp that having no boundaries and structures is in itself anxiety provoking. PDA type behaviours are rooted in intolerance of uncertainty. By phrasing everything as a question or asking him what he wants to do you are increasing his responsibility and therefore his experience of uncertainty. Choices within a boundary often work better in my experience. Eg 7-8 is set aside for homework, but is he going to work on maths or history tonight? Would he like a hot chocolate or a glass of squash while he works? Would he prefer you to sit with him, or not, for this piece of work?
If you are getting him to work out a solution with you, it needs to be genuinely collaborative.

Re plan B from explosive child: example.

"I have noticed you getting stressed about your homework recently. What's that about?" As the opener to a discussion
Would be plan B

"You do not have to do any homework" would be plan C (drop the demand)

"I am going to sit with you and help you manage your homework each evening" is plan A (adult solution)

All 3 of these have their place.

Currently you are muddling through with a mash up of plan C and plan A (dropping demands or trying to get him to choose) and it's not really working.

I thought PDA behaviours were rooted in extreme anxiety about personal autonomy and control rather than uncertainty (in which respect it is different to other profiles on the spectrum)?

But that said, I'd push to get an assessment, OP, in order to establish with certainty what might be at play?

Can you ask around to find out which local GPs are thoughtful about neuro-disabilities and/or challenging behaviour in childhood and discuss appropriate referrals again with a new practice?

Given waiting lists, could you afford to see a child psychologist privately, even just a few times, to get their initial insights (including to share with your GP to support a referral for an assessment)? They might have insights into things that might be helpful in the short term, in advance of any particular diagnosis, in deescalating tension at home and building up relationships, including a therapeutic parenting orientation, and support ideas for siblings?

School should make adjustments to take account of his functional capacities (you don't need a diagnosis) - is there more the SENCO could help to arrange to reduce stress at school?

Sorry, it sounds really tough. Flowers.

Sleepyblueocean · 16/02/2022 13:16

"There are antidepressants that can help with the anxiety, but it is nigh on impossible to have these prescribed for a child, plus the potential side effects in adolescence."

Sertraline etc is fairly commonly prescribed but it will need to be through camhs who will look at other options first.