How Many Women WFH are Actually Going Back?

[Lunar27]

Reading the NAMALT thread is depressing as a man but unsurprising, given the lived experience of my wife and stuff I've read elsewhere.

For those currently WFH, AIBU to wonder how many will choose to stay at home to avoid the BS of having to physically share office space with men?

I ask as I recently read an article about WFH and how offices post covid could turn into straight white male spaces. The rationale is that minorities (whether ethnic or sex/gender) generally don't have a great time so many will opt to stay at home. If women do the same (to avoid harassment) then the only group left will be straight white males. This could then set back years of progress as we'd be back to straight white males running things (oh joy).

A doom/gloom prediction perhaps but would be interesting to know if male behaviour will form part of the decision making process.

I'm British but of Chinese origin and am not really looking to go back, bar 1-2 days/week. Fortunately my colleagues are ok so is down to personal preference.

What a weird post. I've worked in my office for 20 years now, and the split is around 85% men. I love it and always have, I've never once in that time had a bad experience with a man. I'm working from home right now but hate it, chomping at the bit to get back to the office!

I think when it comes to cultural stuff then you can be yourself more at home. My colleague goes to pray at certain times a day, which some are unsympathetic or just plain rude about. Same with the whole heating up your leftovers at work, you don't have to worry about comments (even well meaning ones about 'exotic' food

Never stopped going back to work and worked through the pandemic. I am in 3 days a week

Women not getting promoted because of reason "x, y or z" before corona, now it's "women work from home more" and "aren't visible anymore" and that's why they are not getting promoted.

It's just another lame-ass excuse added to the list of other lame-ass excuses. Meanwhile, a lot of managers had already been working from home and had flexible working hours long before covid was even in sight.

In the past I have seen too many people who were in the office and either don't shit or do shit work or treat other people like crap, getting promoted again and again. We don't live in a meritocracy. People get promoted for arbitrary reasons, usually coming down to "being a good cultural fit" and the fact that the person promoting them likes them better than someone else.

Even people who have left a company stay in touch with those who like them and despite "not being visible" they come back in a higher role than they had before.

It we want to stop being naive, we really should look at why people actually get promoted.

In my personal experience wfh has seen a lot of my male colleagues and friends get more involved with the childcare and housework than before. Lots more men at the school gate and actually lots really enjoying the extra family time.

This is the case in our house. DH barely saw the kids during the week when he was in the office FT, he was lucky if he got back for bed-time a couple of times a week. Now he has breakfast with the DC every morning and is able to give them a bath and put them to bed each night when he would previously have been sat in traffic on the motorway. He will put a load of washing on or quickly wipe down the kitchen/bathroom between calls so there aren't as many jobs to be done in the evenings. I WOH 3 days a week and on those days he walks DD to school. On my days off we can have lunch together with our toddler.

He goes into the office once a fortnight now and has no intention of increasing it. WFH hasn't stopped him from being promoted twice since the pandemic started so he's not concerned about the 'visibility' aspect. It's definitely changed our lives for the better. His colleagues who have chosen to go back are mostly young, single people (men and women) who still live in house-shares or with their parents. Or those who are approaching retirement age so no kids still at home.

I'm not going back to the office but it's nothing to do with my male colleagues. The only irritating thing they do is walking up and down the office when on their phones, and I can tune that out.

@Boombastic22

Blimey, extreme post. Most men I work with perfectly pleasant and professional. Like most women. What a generalising and frankly goady post.

Exactly. This is where I feel this type of mentality goes into looking for an issue category. It's just feeding the hysteria.

I wish to stay WFH as more convenient without a huge commute. It has nothing to do with the men I work with, I count many as my friends and find them professional and good company. Infact I probably have more male colleagues I enjoy working with then females- it is the person I like/dislike etc not what gender they are.

@JingsMahBucket. Yes, that was covered in the article I think and backed up with percentages of various groups returning to work.

The article came from the Economist, which is a pay site but think there's an equivalent YouTube video. I'll try to dig it out and will post it up once I've found it.

It genuinely wouldn't factor in to me deciding when to go back into the office, at all.

@MrBoPeep

The BS of sharing office space with men? In the multinational companies i worked in, it was the women who caused the most issues, especially those in management.

Most men tend to keep themselves to themselves in offices. There's always the odd arsehole though.

There was a senior civil servant who was reported in the press recently saying she was working from her Peloton and only going in to the office for meetings: 'To stop the men riding roughshod over the women'. Or words to that effect. I think the article was in the context of public sector staff refusing to return to offices.

I have a full time working from home position. I have a 18 month old son and will soon have a new baby.

Wfh isn't to help with childcare. My son goes to a childminder full-time.

It just makes it easier for me and us as a family. I don't have to drive to work, don't have to pay petrol and don't have to deal with office politics, which I always hated.

My husband brings my son to the childminder in the morning. I can sleep much longer, and if I worked in an office I had to get up much earlier.

I pick my son up in the evening.

I have a full-time, demanding job, but because I can Wfh, it is really doable.

I think in my company there's still room for progression for people working from home.

Probably not to director level, but that isn't my ambition anyway.

I'm permanently wfh.

The office is a choice at my workplace and I pop in 1-2 days a month for meetings.

Most of those going in a young and either don't have suitable wfh space at home or are in for the social aspect.

@CaptSkippy

Women not getting promoted because of reason "x, y or z" before corona, now it's "women work from home more" and "aren't visible anymore" and that's why they are not getting promoted.

It's just another lame-ass excuse added to the list of other lame-ass excuses. Meanwhile, a lot of managers had already been working from home and had flexible working hours long before covid was even in sight.

In the past I have seen too many people who were in the office and either don't shit or do shit work or treat other people like crap, getting promoted again and again. We don't live in a meritocracy. People get promoted for arbitrary reasons, usually coming down to "being a good cultural fit" and the fact that the person promoting them likes them better than someone else.

Even people who have left a company stay in touch with those who like them and despite "not being visible" they come back in a higher role than they had before.

It we want to stop being naive, we really should look at why people actually get promoted.

People who get ahead are often some mix of arse-kissers, type A personalities, machiavellian, very confident (regardless of competence), assertive and busy.

The quiet person who just gets on with the job is less likely to move up.

@JingsMahBucket. Still looking but here's another article:

www.ft.com/content/0049bea8-2d5a-42f4-9ac6-cc79402a7bb9

It's quite possible that I confused the Economist with the FT though!

Work life balance is significantly improved by WFH. No commute, ability to pop a wash in or do jobs while kettle boils. Cooking/preping tea in lunch break. I honestly don't know how I used to work in office 5 days a week with school ages kids. No wonder I felt fed up.

I can make space for quality time and life is a lot better for it.

I do miss the office banter etc but not enough to go back in as regularly as I did.

@Kittykatmacbill

I am fascinated that people have time to clean during working hours! I got told by sil that I was only person she had met that was actually working when working from home, so maybe I am doing it wrong.

I don't clean but certainly require mental breaks for 5 or so minutes which is my kettle boiling, toilet visiting time.

I do wonder how much of the avoiding harassment concept is actually cover for the truth that working and child rearing are largely incompatible. I’m a working mother and my life is massively easier since I work from home. I’ve said I’ll hybrid work but the days I’m in the office are much harder.

Add to that the effect of poor socialisation on children/too much internet time at too young an age/poor media choices during lockdown and parents have it incredibly hard at the moment, no wonder so many woman are reluctant to return.

[quote Lunar27]@JingsMahBucket. Still looking but here's another article:

www.ft.com/content/0049bea8-2d5a-42f4-9ac6-cc79402a7bb9

It's quite possible that I confused the Economist with the FT though![/quote]
Thanks @Lunar27. My husband a subscription to the FT so I’ll ask him to bring it up for me.

You also have to think of other possible factors that may mean being in the office is useful. If you are there, you might grow a better relationship with people who can help your career for example.

1 or 2 days per week, usually one.

It's an interesting point.

I'll be working in office 2 days a week max. Not keeping away to avoid sharing space with men or avoiding harassment from men... but WFH is just much better for me in terms of balancing working and being a mother. Working in the office for me equates to leaving the house often before kids are awake and rushing home to try to make it to pick up time at nursery and after school club before it closes. It's just stressful and makes life feel like a huge juggle.

WFH means I can be there for the kids before school and don't have the same stresses of leaving at a certain time to avoid traffic etc. it's less reliance on childcare and much easier to collect kids if they are sick etc during the day.

I think many women will find this.

You also have to think of other possible factors that may mean being in the office is useful.
Free stationery, frequent birthday cakes. I’ve made my peace with the trade-off of buying my own highlighters and Colin the Caterpillars in exchange for never having to commute again.

Do men do all these chores like sorting washing and dusting while in a quick break wfh.