How Many Women WFH are Actually Going Back?

[Lunar27]

Reading the NAMALT thread is depressing as a man but unsurprising, given the lived experience of my wife and stuff I've read elsewhere.

For those currently WFH, AIBU to wonder how many will choose to stay at home to avoid the BS of having to physically share office space with men?

I ask as I recently read an article about WFH and how offices post covid could turn into straight white male spaces. The rationale is that minorities (whether ethnic or sex/gender) generally don't have a great time so many will opt to stay at home. If women do the same (to avoid harassment) then the only group left will be straight white males. This could then set back years of progress as we'd be back to straight white males running things (oh joy).

A doom/gloom prediction perhaps but would be interesting to know if male behaviour will form part of the decision making process.

I'm British but of Chinese origin and am not really looking to go back, bar 1-2 days/week. Fortunately my colleagues are ok so is down to personal preference.

In our tiny staff 10 our of 11 employees, including chief exec, are female. And we sold the office during lockdown. So I can't really contribute, but I am delighted to be WFH for my last couple of years before retirement.

Gosh I feel that if office enviroments are that toxic, no one would want to go back! When I worked in a large open plan office it was a pleasant working atmosphere . Surely harassment from male members of staff would constitute sexual harassment and therefore illegal anyway!

I am fascinated that people have time to clean during working hours! I got told by sil that I was only person she had met that was actually working when working from home, so maybe I am doing it wrong.

@user1487194234

I think there is a serious risk women who WFH will be left behind in the long term

I totally agree.

I'm all in favour of flexible working and absolutely support people being able to combine work effectively with other parts of their lives. Aa an organisation, we try really hard to ensure that communication with staff who are wfh is smooth and inclusive. However, being really honest about it, my relationship is different with the people who wfh full time. They are so much less visible, and they are left out of so many of the casual conversations that happen during the day. It's hard to see how this will not have an impact on career progression in the longer term.

I am fascinated that people have time to clean during working hours!
Depends on the role I think. First year of pandemic I had a GREAT job – sadly only maternity cover otherwise I’d have stayed forever – where I had time to repaint all the skirting boards and other woodwork in the house, strip and repaint my front door, all sorts. House looked brilliant . I’m now in a new role and barely have time to wee.

I think there is a serious risk women who WFH will be left behind in the long term

Well of course. You'd have to be very naive not to see this.

Not like everyone has a choice though is it? It's up to the employer.

@SuperSleepyBaby

I don’t think most women in offices face harassment - its generally a pretty safe place to be and you just get on with your work.

Obviously, there are people who face harassment- but i would not imagine this is a big factor for most people in deciding whether to work from home. There are other factors like avoiding the commute & costs associated with that.

All/most offices have an HR department.

I've been back for a long time. 1 or 2 days a week. Male behaviour has no part in my decision making process.

I wfh most of the time before the pandemic and I will stay home now it's over with the odd office trip to attend a meeting. My straight, white husband will also be continuing to wfh so we can both continue to spend more time with our children.

Anecdotally from school gates most men going back- women slower to do it: ike to to fit school run in/ do household chores etc when wfh

Agree with this. No one in our office is going back because everyone hates the management. But all of the women (myself included) have said this. Because it makes carrying the female mental load easier.

Although in some ways I think it's harder because there is a blur now between work and home. I worry about doing dishes and washing in my breaks now. I feel guilty about working when my kids are home from school even though DH is finished and home too. I end up working an hour extra in the evenings because I feel guilty I've not done enough work. Even though I do twice the amount of work I used to do in the office. Its my own mental attitude towards it, I know. But I find it harder to compartmentalise life now like I used to.

I like many will be working a hybrid model, which I think is a big step forward. I have always enjoyed the collaboration and human contact that comes with being in the office, and I have missed this over lockdown. Whilst work issues remain for women, I do not generally find my office space a sexist environment and I think there is a real danger to many women's careers if they stop at home to juggle childcare and other issues rather than going into the office. IMV young people's futures would also be damaged as they cannot form networks as easily or be trained alongside more experienced staff.

The BS of sharing office space with men? In the multinational companies i worked in, it was the women who caused the most issues, especially those in management.

I got promoted twice whilst pregnant last year and my (white male) manager was my best ally. My second promotion was actually at the beginning of my current mat leave. I can't wait to get back. The people I work with (male and female) are brilliant, our managing partner and my director are both female and I can't imagine any nonsense being tolerated.

Even without the toxic behavior many offices are noisy and you get interrrupted from work a lot. It's great if you need to talk to coworkers often, but detrimental to deep focused work.

I am currently 50:50 and I want to stay that way. To me it's a perfect balance. But there are rumblings in the office about having everyone back fulltime. I know management (all white, all male with wifes doing all the cleaning and child-rearing, etc.) want everyone back in their seats fulltime. I think I'll quit when that happens.

It'll be like all things, women think they have freewill but it's actually the patriarchy pulling the strings.
Just like after maternity when women give up work, drastically cut hours or take themselves out of the running for promotion. They think it's their choice but it's often like partners tutting about nursery costs, snide comments about 'what's the point of having children to pay for someone else to raise them' and good old mum guilt.
This is the same, women saying 'oh it's much more convenient for the family' I can do pick ups etc. We are still hardwired to notice people right in front of us rather than at home. My job doesn't really work from home but a colleague who was previously the favourite of the management has been WFH due to pregnancy and it's like she's non existent. No work gets passed her way, missed out of meeting invites, left out of email trails. Yes it makes her life easier but I can't imagine it would be easy to be promoted in that position if others are in full time, demonstrating their work ethic. Even if that is some slightly dubious male posturing.

I'm in financial services. We are all to go back 3 days a week from later this month. We don't get a choice in the matter.

@TheKeatingFive

I think there is a serious risk women who WFH will be left behind in the long term

Well of course. You'd have to be very naive not to see this.

People ARE already showing that naivety though aren't they? You only have to look at threads on here- women who already have so much more flexibility in their hours than their mothers could have dreamt of (and no, statistically, their mothers aren't likely to be the 1960s housewife who worked a couple of hours down the corner shop, but women in their 50s and 60s with full time careers) and it's never enough. I work flexi hours to allow for drop off but now boss wants a staff meeting which means once a month I'll have to find someone to pick my kid up. I'm WFH but my boss isn't happy that my child is sick and not at school and I keep logging off. I've been given compressed hours but I don't like them. I'd like more as it's "more convenient" for me.

All threads from this week.

And that's without the incessant "I wfh and the ones in the office forgot my birthday" etc.

Yes to flexibility.
Yes to encouraging PARENTS into the workplace by offering EQUAL incentives to do so.

But the excessive special treatment is doing women no favours whatsoever. It's actually deeply concerning and risks setting things back by 30 years.

Missing quotation marks from "I work flexi" to "convenient for me".

@Kittykatmacbill

I am fascinated that people have time to clean during working hours! I got told by sil that I was only person she had met that was actually working when working from home, so maybe I am doing it wrong.

I think for most people it's the opportunity to sort the washing whilst waiting for the kettle to boil or preparing dinner during your lunch break.

I don't know of anyone who doesn't actually work whilst WFH.

I think for most people it's the opportunity to sort the washing whilst waiting for the kettle to boil or preparing dinner during your lunch break

It's this.

When i'm at work, i still make cups of tea, i have to walk ages to get to the toilet, photocopier etc. I bump into colleagues for a quick chat.

At home, that time gets used with quick chores.

@user1487194234

I think there is a serious risk women who WFH will be left behind in the long term

Fascinating conflict of goals there then .... you have the Torygraph contingent apoplectic with rage that they're losing out to all this "WFK" flibberty gibberty. And yet it's probably the best way they have of achieving their other self-abusing fantasy of excluding women, and indeed anyone else that doesn't buy into being pale male and stale as a career accelerator.

Many thanks for the varied responses and really good to see a balance. I'm not trying to be goady but is good to hear, as opposed to making judgements based on an article that a man wrote.

I do hope people don't get left behind but companies are going to have to work hard at inclusivity and selecting people involved in the decision making processes. Hopefully it won't favour presenteeism.

I've always been involved with the house and kids but latterly it wasn't so easy with an hour commute each way. My wife has always worked PT since having the kids and never WFH so it was great for me to take over the school run and some chores. As above, I've traded small talk at the office kitchen (some I do actually miss) to emptying the dishwasher and cleaning whilst waiting for the kettle. Either that or my wife sets off the washing machine and I'll hang out. Probably a bit more balanced nowadays, which is something I feel better about. I think my wife is less stressed so a win-win.

Anecdotal but mates have also talked about doing more around the house so perhaps there are some other positives.

@Lunar27 could you possibly link to that article please? I’d be interested to read it.

This comes at an interesting time because just a couple weeks ago on Twitter there was a discussion amongst some Black users about not having to deal with microaggressions nearly as much since working from home. Imagine reducing exposure to that crap from 8–10 hours a day to about 2 hours of zoom meetings per day or even none at all. It’s a huge relief.

The risk for people WFH all the time/most of the time, in jobs where they would normally hope for/expect career progression is the lack of visibility. I think many many people underestimate the importance of visibility.

At my workplace we are about to return to a hybrid working pattern which is supposed to involve minimum 50% working days in office. The head of office and heads of business stream are in more than that. They absolutely do notice who is there and there seems to be a feeling that if you turn up regularly in person who are more committed to the firm than those who don't. Being there in person and having engendered that air of commitment means also benefitting from information informal conversations. I have gained a lot in that way because its often the way you pick up on stuff like rumoured changes to client accounts, recruitment plans, potential mergers. You adjust accordingly. Clients come in for meetings and you might be asked to "pop in" if there is an opportunity to get involved. If you're not there it can't happen. A lot can be done online, sure, but it will never completely replace the advantages of some face to face contact.

The last time we did hybrid working there was a LOT of resistance from various female employees who thought they should be allowed to WFH permanently because it made childcare easier. When told no those same people would regularly find excuses as to why they couldn't come in when they were supposed to. The effect was (is) that they are turning themselves into invisible workhorses.

Surely the answer is to focus on splitting childcare and domestic duties with one's partner, not trying to make it the employer's problem. 50% WFH seems like a pretty good balance.

Otherwise its like saying yes I'm a woman, I'm entitled to equality but I only want a career-lite option because I'm a mother and that's special so I need special treatment. And potentially that harms the women who do want full on career equality because employers will make assumptions that women are less ambitious and committed.